Site Search:
 
Get TEFL Certified & Start Your Adventure Today!
Teach English Abroad and Get Paid to see the World!
Job Discussion Forums Forum Index Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

The perfect lesson
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
AGoodStory



Joined: 26 Feb 2010
Posts: 738

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, as you've described it:

Better TOLES exam scores (happy administration) = Lower student evaluations (not so happy students)

Lower TOLES scores (unhappy admin) = Higher student evaluations (happier students)


But of course poor student evaluations will also displease the administration, so it's sort of a double no-win. Assuming you can't change your mandate (it sounds as if you've already tried to address the problem with your boss), is there any way to address the question of student motivation? For example, is there any overlap between the TOLES material, and what the students would find useful?

Quote:

many of the students see the exam as irrelevant to their future (it's not recognised by universities and focuses on Private law and many of them are interested in International law) and the fact that the class is compulsory (they're treated like high-school students) and not worth much towards their final grade.


Is there any overlap in the areas of private law (exam material) and international law (student interests) that you could focus on to bump up their motivation? Language/vocabulary common to both that your students would find relevant? It can be damned near impossible to teach unmotivated students unless you can find a way to engage them, but you are hamstrung with a course curriculum they find irrelevant. And having to teach concepts they don't yet know in order to teach the concept language is another whole ball of wax!

I've had more than one job that was by its nature impossible. A job description as designed and mandated from on high can be either irrelevant to or in conflict with the actual need. I've also worked in situations where the decision-making powers-that-be were deeply divided, and my position reported to two or more bosses who could not both be satisfied. In these cases where conflicting demands could not be reconciled, one of the only things that helped was adopting an attitude similar to that suggested earlier by FH:

"Well, don't beat yourself up too much then, Nicky!"

That is: acknowledge the impossibility, use your best judgement to balance conflicting demands, and accept that one of the parties will find your performance lacking no matter what you do!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Knedliki



Joined: 08 May 2015
Posts: 160

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does sound like a no win situation. Just suck it up seems to be the best advice and wait until your contract's up.

A gardener once told me the best thing to do to get moles out of your garden was to move house. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nicky_McG



Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 190

PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2015 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AGoodStory wrote:
So, as you've described it:

Better TOLES exam scores (happy administration) = Lower student evaluations (not so happy students)

Lower TOLES scores (unhappy admin) = Higher student evaluations (happier students)


But of course poor student evaluations will also displease the administration, so it's sort of a double no-win. Assuming you can't change your mandate (it sounds as if you've already tried to address the problem with your boss), is there any way to address the question of student motivation? For example, is there any overlap between the TOLES material, and what the students would find useful?

Quote:

many of the students see the exam as irrelevant to their future (it's not recognised by universities and focuses on Private law and many of them are interested in International law) and the fact that the class is compulsory (they're treated like high-school students) and not worth much towards their final grade.


Is there any overlap in the areas of private law (exam material) and international law (student interests) that you could focus on to bump up their motivation? Language/vocabulary common to both that your students would find relevant? It can be damned near impossible to teach unmotivated students unless you can find a way to engage them, but you are hamstrung with a course curriculum they find irrelevant. And having to teach concepts they don't yet know in order to teach the concept language is another whole ball of wax!

I've had more than one job that was by its nature impossible. A job description as designed and mandated from on high can be either irrelevant to or in conflict with the actual need. I've also worked in situations where the decision-making powers-that-be were deeply divided, and my position reported to two or more bosses who could not both be satisfied. In these cases where conflicting demands could not be reconciled, one of the only things that helped was adopting an attitude similar to that suggested earlier by FH:

"Well, don't beat yourself up too much then, Nicky!"

That is: acknowledge the impossibility, use your best judgement to balance conflicting demands, and accept that one of the parties will find your performance lacking no matter what you do!


Thanks. You've summed it up nicely. There are some parts of the TOLES that can be useful (about 50%) but like you understood, it can be difficult to teach the concepts and vocabulary.

This is the first year that they've reverted back to paper-based evaluations (there has been a poor internet response) so it's the first time I've read them. I have given out informal anonymous feedback before and the results were generally positive (though I made it clear that I had not control over the TOLES). I guess it all depends what happens with the feedback, of course! Were it to be used against me, it would be disappointing. However, if, as I suspect, it disappears never to be seen again it doesn't really matter (though I'd still like my students to enjoy the class more!) Like you said, it just seems to be one of those things I can do nothing about. I'm going to start looking for something new for next year and if I have some decent offers, this could be leverage to have more say in the classes.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 6:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hod wrote:
fluffyhamster wrote:
your implicit charge of edutaining

Oh, so I’m an edutainer now? Good job I’m not sensitive then.
fluffyhamster wrote:
I see the heavy hand of CELTA

Guilty. I think it would work well with this grammar at pre-int level.
fluffyhamster wrote:
Who is this Bob or Steve?

It’s better than saying he or she. They’re also easy names to read and pronounce. I get annoyed when beginner textbooks have names like Thompson or Kamakawiwo.
And on the subject of textbooks, I assume I’d have one to hopefully help me out.
fluffyhamster wrote:
Where is the context introducing these (as you admit, "not brilliant") examples?

There would be an edutaining warmer to secretly introduce the grammar which would then be modelled. Then I'd go on to the examples.
fluffyhamster wrote:
Sorry, who is at the front shouting out questions?

Many teachers. I’ve seen it. If teachers really have no option but to do this, at least choose a student or throw a cushion or something, anything to stop that one braver student answering every single time. Do you sense my bugbear from Cervanes, Goethe, etc?
fluffyhamster wrote:
there is only your insistence that a form is necessarily 'strange'

I chose third conditional as I had such troubles learning the German equivalent. The form still is strange to me. A pre-intermediate student on first seeing the Bob sentence, for example, will struggle to work out what tenses are going on.
fluffyhamster wrote:
I'd be interested to hear what your freer activities would be like, and again why you would absent yourself from whatever communication might be engendered.

Assuming my textbook was of no help, there are countless free-speaking exercises available. Here’s another bad example (top of the Google page).

http://www.teachingenglish.org.uk/article/third-conditional-guessing-game

Assuming this activity, or a better version of it, was developed and introduced effectively, wouldn’t it be better if I absented myself? If I start correcting or explaining during free practice, everyone else stops to listen to me.

I’ve no problems with you picking holes in the above lesson outline. It’s not a one size fits all, but it would work OK in a ninety-minute class of twenty or so interested adult students. They won’t leave the classroom that day fluent in the ways of the third conditional, but if I’d crammed any more in, I wouldn’t have had time to show my Einstein photo, would I?

I and You might be a better place to at least start. What is this fixation that ELT has with third persons? Hardly personalizing the language, is it!

By 'strange' forms, I wasn't thinking of any specific form (even given the discussion of the 3rd conditional), but rather, suggesting that the procedures you're advocating may not be the best way to interpersonally familiarize students with the use. A case in point is that Bob and Steve thang just mentioned. Another would be that BC activity you linked to (which I doubt you think is that bad at all).

Sure, conditionals (especially the more complex) do require a bit of imagination to process let alone invent, and we've probably all been guilty at times of asking students to make up and crank out a few sentences, but that BC activity takes it further than most, and probably underestimates the difficulty of the (t)ask (certainly, if we hope to end up with enough halfway decent, reasonably useful examples (useful beyond the fun of the activity, I mean - see my additional comments below)). Before commenting further, I'll paste it in here as their website was down just now for at least a few minutes, and it'll save people having to switch between pages:
Quote:
Third conditional guessing game

This is a simple game for spoken practice of the third conditional.

Ask a student, a volunteer hopefully, to leave the room. While that person is out of the room you and the rest of the class decide on something very unusual that could have happened while they were out of the room. A good example is two students get married, the OHP explodes, basically whatever the students can suggest.

Then, the person who has left the room comes back in and asks each student in turn only one question and the full question is 'What would you have done if this had happened?'

And each student in turn answers in a full sentence for example, 'If this had happened, I would have bought some flowers'.

Now, they mustn't mention the names of anyone involved because at the end the student who is guessing has to work out what happened to whom and, if they can't, you can go round again with new answers.

[As this is for speaking practice, the students should use the contracted form for the conditional grammar - 'If this'd happened, I'd 've bought some flowers.']

Author: Nancy Osmond


Surely 2nd conditional would be more suited to simply (well, at least more simply) hypothesizing for the sake (fun) of it. That is, the given "context" ('decide on something very unusual that could have happened while the chosen person was out of the room' [my italics]) is ultimately mere rhetorical injunction that a certain form will predominate. In that respect this activity doesn't seem that different to stuff like the Present Perfect one that Richards criticized in one of his books (pupils being asked to touch or move classroom objects, with the teacher then solemnly intoning and stressing 'Rita has touched the blackboard' or 'Pablo has moved the chair', as if the addition of the perfect aspect was entirely necessary and Simple Past wouldn't have done the job of reporting such remarkable events quite adequately). If everybody in the class started farting, I would buy a huge can of air freshener. Or open the window. > If everybody in the class had started farting, I would've bought a huge can of air freshener. Or opened the window. The world could('ve) end(ed) before we type(d) our next sentence, but how often do we predicate our next sentence on such unlikely or bizarre bases? Hardly ever, and with good reason (read on!).

Obviously something is amiss in the above classroom, but what could it be? It's more basic than excess pedagogical rhetoric and compensatory overinvention and juddering steaming cranking out, though. It concerns what I would call "metafunction", the REAL WHY.

It is all very well broadly knowing that zero conditional=factual, that first=predictive, that second=hypothetical, and that third=counterfactual, but why oh WHY (when we use them) are we being so factual, predictive, hypothetical, or counterfactual? What emotions are involved for example in imagining things differently to known history, how events actually played out? We are being counterfactual DUE TO FEELING.....?

In the reporting appalling customer service scenario I mentioned previously, there will likely be at least a little anger or dismay involved. Thinking up a few more examples reflective of real life, I can discern things like regret or ruefulness or wistfulness (accepting jobs that turned out to be very bad, or moving to new places that are worse than or not as nice as the old, and how about the one that got away!), blame or recrimination (from things not being done mindfully enough to prevent bad or unwanted things happening), apology (at the state of your place during a surprise visit from a friend), grateful wonderment (at being fortunate enough to have been in a certain place and at the right time to encounter one's future husband or wife, for example), the list could go on.

Compare those metafunctionally-convincing (functionally-metaconvincing? LOL) reasons with what is on offer in the average ELT class. People pretending to be, or in communication with, a resurrected Hitler or Napoleon. Or imaginary situations that are so unlikely or random as to be very bizarre, laughable almost (classmates suddenly getting married within a 5-minute window, OHPs exploding, the classroom filling with flatulence). Fun or bizarre or random is fine in "reasonable" doses (but just how much is that? Especially given the edutainer label being so carelessly bandied around!), but I don't think many classes prepare students for the real world that much, even when the classes are trying to be "serious". There is a wider gamut of emotions and motivations involved with and behind language, but how much of this intrudes into the polite playtime? "Oh, it's OK, in this class we're just having a bit of harmless fun. We'll get onto learning something genuinely useful at some point, really, I promise!". Would it be too much to suggest that students will find it easier to proceed from serious, even halfway-useful examples to having fun than the other way around? (Putting that another way, perhaps teachers should spend less time doing or forcing busy work, and more time thinking about how real people talk and thus communicate things of actual substance). I'm sure there are reasonable activities and materials around, but IMHO this BC offering isn't one of them.

The essential point is that people don't imagine counterfactually on the basis of completely unknown histories, and not providing those histories (in the course of relatively normal conversation, I mean) is a HUGE missed opportunity. I really fail to see how such convoluted guessing games help students make any sense of the functional shape and indeed shaping of the language. It's like the classroom clock is always stuck at 3am and it's the devil's work trying to work out what time it should really be saying. Language is or should be as much process as product but most so-called communicative classes clearly pay little real attention to the process. Frankly it's scandalous.

And I have to say how unsurprising yet kinda cheapskate it would('ve) be(en) to apparently buy only some flowers for a (sudden) wedding. Just like air freshener doesn't freshen air, or new OHPs (and decent liability insurance policies) aren't required when the old one explodes, and so on. Listless.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Jan 08, 2016 11:02 pm; edited 10 times in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
Location: Home

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're no doubt a good teacher who plans.

Could you do me a favour, please?

You've put time and effort into the above post. It's appreciated. Imagine if you suddenly had to leave town for a few days and had to draft a lesson plan for a less-experienced stand-in.

- Pre-Int
- 20 adult general English students from various countries
- 90-minute lesson

If I were that stand-in at a decent school, it’d be only fair I get a one-page summary.

Lesson plan, please.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it were a "decent" school, such as British Council one, then wouldn't the less experienced but still qualified colleague stand in no problem, for example by using that activity you linked to? Job done, the students progress like a slow-motion dream, no need to read what I write at all!

If they'd listened to me...

...they wouldn't have had to buy all that air freshener.
...they'd be going on advanced by now
. (Mixed conditional)
...the BC would've gone out of business/would be out of business by now.
...


Laughing
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
Location: Home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've worked at decent schools and had to stand in at a moment's notice on many occasions.

I cursed the sick/lazy teacher, but I always knew the not sick/lazy students had traipsed that 25Km across town and deserved a meaningful lesson.

Would you be happy as a paying student, who'd traipsed 25Km to your class, with what you've written above?

Can you offer a basic lesson plan, please?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dear Hod:

If you'd listened to the hamster, you'd .....

Rolling Eyes Wink

Best,
spiral
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
Location: Home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First Conditional:

1. If the hamster attempts a concise lesson plan as discussed above, i.e. bullet points and no chunky paragraphs, I'll nominate him/her as eslcafe non-edutainer of the year 2015.

2. If the hamster doesn't give a concise lesson plan as discussed above, i.e. bullet points and no chunky paragraphs, I'll nominate him/her as eslcafe edutainer of the year 2015 and 2016.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe I've gone into sufficient detail already, particularly in my post at the top of page 3 (note its penultimate paragraph especially), and my mention of ballpark exponents and vicarious rehearsal on page 4. And I don't see it as my job to teach native speakers how to converse and highlight key points in their speech. If however those suggestions don't appeal then I'm sure it wouldn't take too much to develop sentence-generating activities from the metafunctional cues I've provided above e.g. the Blame Game, pointing out all the mistakes that somebody made doing something (perhaps a Worst Lesson Ever? Very Happy). Another area ripe for exploitation is film plots, and positing different courses of action for certain characters. The only problem with any potentially less conversational practice however is that you end up with a cavalcade or indeed an avalanche of similar forms. It may all be focussed practice but it isn't discourse, and the salience of the form thus risks being lost in a way (i.e. less or incremental could be more). But if these and similar points are ignored by the reader then I'm not sure what else I can do to help improve what should be more genuine, purposeful and exemplificatory communication in their classes, or indeed if they should really even be language teachers.

If the rationale is sound the lesson plan will follow, and I'm not sure what to make of the implication here that providing (all-too-)concise plans necessarily allows easier criticism - if anything, it is the lack of a rationale that is making your and the BC's plans look weaker than they perhaps might otherwise (though I don't feel my criticisms have been unfair, far from it actually). Depending on the responses I now get and how the mood strikes me I may however "relent" and somehow find the time to type up a plan formatted to your exacting specifications*, but as one is spoilt for choice really regarding possible "metafunctional foci" then it might be an idea if we settled on just one or two before proceeding any. Then again, I could imagine doing justice to several areas if the conversation went around a few times and a change of topic were allowed. Another option would be to return to the form over a series of lessons. One thing that should be pointed out is that the students will have already met if, past perfect, would and perfect aspect generally, so the accreted meaning shouldn't be that hard to grasp, and purposeful communication can help LOL.

Quote:
Would you be happy as a paying student, who'd traipsed 25Km to your class, with what you've written above?

What I wrote in itself obviously isn't for paying students but rather for the (conscientious or at least thinking) teachers taking that money. Student feedback is quite a blunt tool ultimately, if only because it is so easy as a native speaker to pull the wool over their eyes. This is a language school, I'm a (certified) teacher, this activity seems a lot of fun, you were all speaking and producing language after a fashion, what's the problem? The noiseometer readings were very satisfactory.


*Here's an idea: why don't YOU type up a lesson plan based on what I've written and then see if I agree with it more? Especially as I've written a fair bit more more than you already. Might beat me trying to satisfy certainly the less eloquent critics on here, who never seem to have time for anything, and always fail to engage.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grahamb



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 9:59 am    Post subject: Hard lesson Reply with quote

Quote:
*Here's an idea: why don't YOU type up a lesson plan based on what I've written and then see if I agree with it more? Especially as I've written a fair bit more more than you already.


First conditional:

If Hod follows the hamster's suggestion, I'll eat my cat (not my hat). Wink
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Hod



Joined: 28 Apr 2003
Posts: 1613
Location: Home

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Hard lesson Reply with quote

grahamb wrote:
Quote:
*Here's an idea: why don't YOU type up a lesson plan based on what I've written and then see if I agree with it more? Especially as I've written a fair bit more more than you already.


First conditional:

If Hod follows the hamster's suggestion, I'll eat my cat (not my hat). Wink


If I'd stood in the Big Mac queue behind fluffyhamster whilst he/she/it debates every option on the menu with the staff whilst also discussing KFC, Burger King and the price of bread in the congo, I'd have eaten your cat by now. I'd eat your hat too if anyone could make any sort of plan from hamster's meandering chunky paragraphs. Call me an edutainer, but I thought teachers should have decent communication skills.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
spiral78



Joined: 05 Apr 2004
Posts: 11534
Location: On a Short Leash

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 1:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the hamster teaches in the same style as he writes on Dave's, I expect his students spend lots of time smiling and nodding in order to save face, but that very little is going on inside their heads. Who wants to admit that the teacher makes no sense?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
Posts: 3292
Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hod, you've veered from saying 'You're no doubt a good teacher who plans' and 'You've put time and effort into the above post. It's appreciated' to 'If I'd stood in the Big Mac queue behind fluffyhamster whilst he/she/it debates every option on the menu with the staff whilst also discussing KFC, Burger King and the price of bread in the congo, I'd have eaten your cat by now. I'd eat your hat too if anyone could make any sort of plan from hamster's meandering chunky paragraphs. Call me an edutainer, but I thought teachers should have decent communication skills'.

Yes, you really hunger for debate and possible knowledge, I can tell! I guess a sandwich to you is just two slices of unbuttered bread with a slice of luncheon meat shoved between them, that you then proceed to choke down as "it's only food". (I'm sure there has to be a middle ground beyond Wet Umbrellaless Bob or Hungry Banana-dodging Steve with all their CCQs, and the heady freedom of classroom surprise instant marriages and exploding OHPs, but I just can't work out what the answer is. Oh wait, I think I've got it - mayo).

I didn't realize I was having (well, trying to have) a conversation with somebody so keen to appeal to lowest common denominators ("But think of the children!") and the frenzied baying mob beyond. Let's be absolutely clear, I wasn't talking to your callow colleague Neville Halfbrain, I was talking to you, and if I'd felt the points I wanted to raise could be covered in a bare-bones lesson plan I'd've posted one earlier, sorry about that. (That there was a sarcastic use of third conditional, by the way Idea Wink Very Happy).

In all, I can't say I'm inclined to continue with this immensely pleasant and rewarding chat (well, I got something out of it at least), but you'll doubtless walk away congratulating yourself that you actually addressed and refuted my points and are thus Vindicated!* (but you didn't, and you aren't). The exit is that way, and drinks are on Spiral and Grahamb in some nameless bar as you nurse your poor aching hide after a somewhat rough ride on Dave's. Razz Laughing Cool


*I'm thinking, sounding like Woody Harrelson does in that bit in EDtv LOL.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
grahamb



Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945

PostPosted: Tue Dec 08, 2015 5:39 pm    Post subject: Veer today, gone tomorrow Reply with quote

Veering is typical of Hod's debating style. If I may quote Lord Melchett, he twists and turns like a twisty-turny thing. Not my idea of a drinking partner.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Job Discussion Forums Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
Page 5 of 10

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group

Teaching Jobs in China
Teaching Jobs in China