Job Discussion Forums

[ghost]

I have never worked in Japan, but I have gone there a few times - because I used to be a competitive marathon runner (best time 2hrs30mins) and I wanted to see the fabulous Japanese marathon training system - third in the world, behind Kenya and Ethiopia).

First of all - I think many people go to Japan because they might be interested in an aspect of Japanese culture - whether it be 'manga', 'japanese martial arts', 'japanese arts or music', or other interests. I am no different. What brought me to Japan, initially, a few times, was to learn and observe their elite marathon running culture (third best in the world on an elite level, behind only the super humans - Kenya and Ethiopia. Japanese marathon runners are the hardest working sports people I have ever seen. They average around 50km per day of running, often in small parks, like the Imperial Palace Park in central Tokyo. Now imagine running around there for 50km a day! One loop of the Imperial Palace park is only around 1km. Only the Japanese have that kind of work ethic in sports. I have seen no other country with the Japanese sports work ethic. They really go through the pain barrier and more! I have seen it with other sports in Japan also, such as the youth who train in baseball, and I have seen how their coaches make their youth run around 10km a day, often in torrid conditions. You would never see that in the U.S. or Canada.

Anyways, I have always been attracted to Japan, but now, in my late 50s, I realize that my dream of working there is unrealistic, because I would be an unlikely hire. Also the fact that visiting a country and actually working there are two different things (I experienced that when I worked in Turkey for one year, after visiting on vacation many times - and the experience was totally different - but in the negative, for the work experience - I taught mostly Turkish kids in the private schools, and they were some of the worst behaved students I had ever met).

I work in China now, and so I can compare the two countries. I hope my colleague is not reading this, because he hates it when people have issues with China.

1 Japan is much cleaner than China. Where I am located, in China (Guandong province) just outside the front gates, there is a bbq restaurant area, where there are a few night time eating places. Because these restaurant owners just throw their rubbish anywhere, there are rats and mice running around everywhere near there, at night. I don't think you would see that in Japan. There may be rats in Japan, but I think you do not see them much, because the Japanese, I think, have much better hygiene standards compared to the Chinese.

2. In China, driving on the roads is chaos. There are cars, buses and motorbikes everywhere - and there does not seem to be any system on how to behave in traffic, everyone just seems to drive for themselves, paying little heed to common courtesy and what would be thought of as common sense on the roads in other countries.

In Japan, I was in Fukuoka a few times, and always used a bicycle to get around. Japanese ride bikes everywhere. They are much more green than the Chinese.

In China - very hard to make meaningful friends - there are mostly people who just want to practice their English with me. I have no real friends here. Another issue is that there is no one here, I repeat no one, that I can have an interesting conversation with. Yesterday in class, I asked my Oral English class some simple questions about the world, outside of China, and they could not answer a single question correctly. One example of a question I asked was 'What is the approximate population of the U.S.A?" - all the students looked at me with blank faces, and then one girl ventured - 30 million people!"

The fact that I cannot have an interesting conversation with chinese people makes it very frustrating to live here from a social point of view.

3 Chinese work culture is so lazy - I am sticking my neck out here, and sorry if this sounds like a diss, but there is nothing that gets done here in Guandong Province between about 11.30am and 3pm - because everyone goes off to lunch at that time and then sleeps. There is nothing that gets done at that time. I personally think most Chinese are very lazy people, despite what I had thought prior to coming here. I think Japanese are much harder working. I was astonished when visiting the IKEA store in Guangzhou, one afternoon, last summer, to see hundreds and hundreds of people sleeping on their display beds and sofas.....in the store! Only in China would you see this. It appears that those people have absolutely no self discipline whatsoever. Even in Saudi Arabia, where I worked for 6 years, you would never see that in IKEA, and there was an IKEA just down the road from my university in Saudi (www.kfupm.edu.sa).

4 Lack of organization and chaos in China - You go to any public place in China, be it a hospital, or other public place like a swimming pool, and the scene is usually chaotic, with Chinese running around like headless chickens. At the swimming pool, no one knows how to behave when swimming laps in China, and for that reason, I gave up, so that now, I just swim in the river.

Once again, my big attraction to Japan is that I went there to learn from the fantastic long distance runners, and their work culture, hard work, determination and drive to succeed in sports is unlike anything you see in China. Gambatte kudasai!

I also studied Japanese for a couple of weeks at the excellent Genki Jacs school, in Fukuoka.

However, I have never worked in Japan, so some of you might surmise that I am looking at Japan through 'rose tinted glasses' - Ironically, I know (highly suspect) that the Japanese actually dislike their 'gaijin' more that the Chinese dislike their 'laowai' - in fact on the plus side, in China, 'laowai' are really given a high status (often undeserved) just because they are 'laowai' - so most Japanese might not really like foreigners, but at least most Japanese, in my experience, are polite and civilized to us. The Chinese are mostly polite too, to foreigners, but this does not usually include fighting your way through traffic, or getting on and off buses - in those cases everyone is in the same boat.

For those of you who have both worked and lived in China and Japan, your comments would be appreciated. Overall, I think the Japanese are much more civilized (sorry if this sounds like a diss to the Chinese_), cultured (everywhere I went in Japan, I saw people reading books, magazines and different periodicals...often of a highbrow nature - whereas in China - there is the lowest readership of books - less than 1 book read per year by Chinese, according to stats by a professor at my university), elegant, hard working, and interesting (in Japan there is a much more eclectic type culture, with Japanese really thinking outside the box on many things, and getting away from the masses - I think that is healthy. In China, all my students look and behave the same, and sorry if that sounds like an appalling generalization).

This is my opinion, and I am not attempting to speak for other EFL teachers in China.

Thank you for any responses you may have, and sorry if I may have come across as 'dissing' Chinese culture. I appreciate the fact that I have a job here and most Chinese are decent people, but I have never really been happy here. I think that Japan would have suited me much better.

Ghost in China

[currentaffairs]

I haven't worked in China but I worked for six years in Japan.. I would recommend the south now - Nagoya, Osaka, Hiroshima and Fukuoka. Tokyo is very busy and saturated with teachers. I enjoyed living near there but would advise people to look at the smaller towns now.. Sapporo another option in the north.

China would be a better bet for jobs and money, I think.

[RM1983]

Sounds like those things are true but Japan has its own difficulties - look at the Do Not Teach in Japan thread.

[ghost]

[RM1983]

[ghost]

I am talking about average jobs - most jobs - in China, only pay around $700 - $900 dollars per month. I know highly qualified teachers here with PhDs from prestigious American universities who consider themselves lucky to be getting 12,000 rmb a month ($1900) and that kind of salary is very rare, very rare in China.

As I said, over 90% of the jobs in China are in the 4000 - 6000 rmb per month range ($640 - $960). It makes you wonder why people even come here, in China, to teach. Some do it for the 'experience' and others want to learn Mandarin. I am mainly here for the latter, and am giving myself two years here, maximum before moving on. Have almost completed one year. Time passes quickly. Now if anyone here can help me to work in Japan, as an over 55+ year old, they will receive a commission, to be discussed by pm here. That is how keen I am to go to Japan, and live my dream, even though it may be a pipe dream, for some.

Ghost in China

[currentaffairs]

Yes, I know salaries are lower in China but when you factor in the economy, opportunities and the lower cost of living then things even out or probably go in China's favour. Someone I know has picked up a job in China for 10,000 rmb plus accommodation. He is a newbie and has zero teaching experience.. The 250,000 yen average in Japan is quickly eaten up by rent (around 60,000 yen minimum in Tokyo), taxes, and high cost of living.

Yes, the quality of life in Japan is pretty good in terms of nightlife, amenities, shopping and transport..

[mitsui]

Teachers can get $35,000 in Chengdu and about $50,000 outside of Shanghai.
I am thinking of specific university work.
One is just for Americans, and is the ELF program.

[RM1983]

[RonnieColeman]

Honestly there are way more opportunities in China compared to Japan. I know several teachers with MA's teaching at Eikaiwas and not making much more than 250,000. Universities pay well but they're ultra competitive. Even with an MA you're going to need publications and JLPT level 2 to even have a chance of an interview.

[RM1983]

[mitsui]

You can get interviews with worse Japanese, but you better have enough publications and/or presentations. Sometimes you need at least five of each.

Sometimes you get the tough question in Japanese for only part-time work.

[Chris21]

Very interesting post. I've been teaching in Japan for the last 17 years and have always wondered what it would have been like if I had chosen China instead. I agreed with most of the Japan-related points in your post, except for a few. I find meaningful friendships are also difficult to establish in Japan. I often feel like I'm being used for English conversation practice or as a novelty. And just as in China, I feel Japanese students have difficulty articulating opinions or discussing issues that foreigners might find interesting (i.e. current events, politics, etc). It was suggested that Japanese are good at thinking "outside the box", but I have found quite the opposite is true. The emphasis on rote memory rather than discussion in Japanese education has left many Japanese with an absence of creative-thinking, and they are very much "trapped in the box".

It a subsequent reply, it was also pointed out that university employment is very competitive in Japan. This is true for full-time, and not true for part-time. A full-time hire should have a strong resume, although language skills are not a requirement (helpful though). For part-time work, an MA and three simple publications should suffice.

[mitsui]

Depends on the school.
Knowing good Japanese and showing it in the interview can be the difference between getting a job and getting rejected.
Some part-time jobs are not easy to get.
I am thinking of universities in Kanagawa and Saitama

[ghost]

You are right on the fact that Japanese might find it hard to think outside the box.

However, when I was in Japan, I was impressed, because everywhere I went - I saw people reading - not just stuff on smartphones (as they do in China, ad infinitum) but also books, magazines, newspapers, etc...and there were bookstores everywhere in Japan. So, in my book (pardon the pun) the Japanese have much more cultural awareness compared with the Chinese. I also think they are much more curious about the outside world. I remember, in Fukuoka, there were Japanese people interested in learning about diverse cultures - like the Nepalese culture and other countries.

Throughout the world, I have often seen Japanese 'backpackers' traveling the world, much like the Israelis. Many of these Japanese are what used to be called 'hippies' and shared those values. I have never, yet, seen a Chinese backpacker, in all my travels. I think 'backpackers' are a kind of barometer of the culture of the country, reflecting the values of backpackers and the willingness to 'rough it' throughout the world on a shoestring. Chinese who travel, only want to go to upmarket places, and all they are interested in is consuming, consuming and consuming - buying stuff.

What attracts me to Japan, is the sports culture (elite marathon running) and the inherent discipline and decency of the Japanese.

I am well cognizant that many Japanese do not really care for us (gaijin), but at least the vast majority of Japanese are courteous and behave well in most situations.

I think if a gaijin shows respect for Japan, shows an interest in learning the language and culture, then he/she should have a good time in Japan.

Also impressed by the fact that many posters here stay in Japan for lengthy periods of time - often 10 - 15 years or more.

In China, virtually everyone I have met (that I taught with at KFUPM, Saudi Arabia) who has been here, left after a year or two, because of the inherent frustrations of living in China, which I have outlined in the first post. There are fewer long term foreign residents in China, compared with Japan. This especially applies to foreigners who have married and started families in China. They are concerned with a host of problems, like pollution, traffic, inadequate schooling, hospitals, and other things which leave much to be desired.

Ghost in China