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Do Not Speak Japanese in Class!
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Shakey



Joined: 29 Aug 2014
Posts: 199

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:49 am    Post subject: Do Not Speak Japanese in Class! Reply with quote

JET instructor is chastised by a Japanese teacher for speaking Japanese in class.

Do Not Speak Japanese in Class!
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Nemu_Yoake



Joined: 02 Aug 2015
Posts: 47
Location: Iwate

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too much drama for nothing. In this case, he could have explained it all in English. The kid would have perfectly understood. You don't need to explain "It's plural so blablabla". If needed, you give an other simple example in English to make the student realize where is the problem. If he doesn't like using gestures, why is he teaching English abroad???

Rarely, when you really tried to explain all in English and even so the kid doesn't understand, THEN using Japanese is more effective than sticking to English, because it's frustrating for the student to not understand what you're saying.

I disagree with the comment on immersion. If they know that you understand Japanese, they won't try to use English. They do it at my JHS, trying to speak only Japanese with me because they know that I can speak it (I did my practicum for my TL at the same school last year) but I'm like "sorry, I don't understand", so they have to try to speak English if they REALLY want to communicate with me. When I have to do seito shidou (I'm allowed to do it), I use Japanese for the first year students though. I try in English for the second and third year students.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The guy could shake it off (he looks hungover) and speed it along a bit more, but is absolutely correct with his main point, which is that explanation in Japanese regarding e.g. why 'are' rather than 'is' is required in e.g. 'They ___ annoying' (he alludes to fukusukei 複数形 i.e. plurals) is a lot more helpful than just making cute maru (circle, "correct") and batsu (cross, "wrong") gestures at the kids. If the JTE isn't doing their job then no reason the AET (assuming they can speak enough Japanese) shouldn't.

And of course an hour or so per week isn't immersion and won't a fluent kiddie make, no matter how much totalitarian Direct Methodistas want to believe or insist otherwise.

Plus even without training I'm sure his instinct is to use much less Japanese overall than the average JTE. In moderation and only when needed (and some definitely is needed sometimes, if only to get all the students on the same page quicker).

Why is it that the mere mention of translation often brings out such strawman arguments ("You're not a good teacher! Too inclined to lecture all the time, and not even in English!")? :eyeroll:

Merry Christmas! Smile
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Thu Dec 24, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nemu_Yoake wrote:
Too much drama for nothing. In this case, he could have explained it all in English. The kid would have perfectly understood. You don't need to explain "It's plural so blablabla". If needed, you give an other simple example in English to make the student realize where is the problem.

(Edit: Oops had somehow missed the 'You don't need to explain' part previously!). I'd agree that it's ultimately better to present the notions via English examples. But that's presumably what the guy is doing...or would do, if he could ever be given more than just a few seconds by the often too impatient JTE to say anything at all "tangential" to the lesson "plan" with all its quality-assured learning.

Quote:
If they know that you understand Japanese, they won't try to use English.

It might be less of a problem for me as my Japanese is doubtless not as good as yours. Personally I never found it too hard to clearly delineate what was mere patter in Japanese, and what was actual communication in English that I then wanted them to repeat and replicate, practice and so on. If I'm speaking Japanese then I'm speaking Japanese (well, after a fashion LOL). If I'm speaking English I've code-switched until further notice.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:16 am; edited 2 times in total
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RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
The guy could shake it off (he looks hungover) and speed it along a bit more, but is absolutely correct with his main point, which is that explanation in Japanese regarding e.g. why 'are' rather than 'is' is required in e.g. 'They ___ annoying' (he alludes to fukusukei 複数形 i.e. plurals) is a lot more helpful than just making cute maru (circle, "correct") and batsu (cross, "wrong") gestures at the kids. If the JTE isn't doing their job then no reason the AET (assuming they can speak enough Japanese) shouldn't.

And of course an hour or so per week isn't immersion and won't a fluent kiddie make, no matter how much totalitarian Direct Methodistas want to believe or insist otherwise.

Plus even without training I'm sure his instinct is to use much less Japanese overall than the average JTE. In moderation and only when needed (and some definitely is needed sometimes, if only to get all the students on the same page quicker).

Why is it that the mere mention of translation often brings out such strawman arguments ("You're not a good teacher! Too inclined to lecture all the time, and not even in English!")? :eyeroll:

Merry Christmas! Smile



There are still good reasons to at least try in English.

- in a class of more than 30, there will be at least a few who get your explanation, and this could be a nice boost to their confidence that they can get it without any Japanese

- the ones who sort of get it get that practice, and take a small step to another skill


- if they don't get your explanation, it will encourage students who do know the rule to peer coach the class, which is very healthy in my opinion (and something my classes here are particularly strong with)

- students who don't get it might be encouraged to research it outside the class, which could then lead to them being capable of researching these things independently, also healthy.

- the J teacher there has your back, in theory, and will I'm sure explain it anyway at some point (most of my communicative ALT classes are done with grammar already known to students)

Overall, it is frustrating to not be understood, but I think there is still something to be said for using no Japanese.

Besides, I have met many adults who will make mistakes with this, and they have heard the rule a thousand times, in English and Japanese probably and they still can't nail it. It's a short term convenience to explain everything they don't understand in Japanese, and creates a reliance on L1 IMO.
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RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fact if he is doing a communicative class here, why bring up grammar at all? Do something that will focus on understanding the meaning
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@RM1983: The flip side of the more able is the less able, and most JTEs will check "everything" in Japanese anyway. I think it wastes time to explain in two languages. I can see the argument for English-only in the abstract but the sad reality is that many classes do little more than get good at following imperatives and explanations about the language, as what should be the focus gets submerged in a wall of sound.

An analogy I'd make would be between the definitions versus actual authentic examples in a dictionary. Of course the definitions are in a way interesting and useful, and I have to admit to liking to read the J ones in bilingualized (E-E-J) dictionaries, but they are not the language proper (unless we mean in terms of a defining vocabulary, which forms a sublanguage all of its own), and the focus should be on the examples, which usually contain little from the definition, which is how it should be.

I think it is unfair to ask if he is "in fact doing a communicative class" as a) truly communicative methodology isn't the norm in J English school classes (nor many other places really, IMHO) and b) correction (and reformulation etc) is, like it or not, actually a form of communication. Let's not read too much into things or criticize him unduly.


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Fri Dec 25, 2015 5:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
@RM1983: The flip side of the more able is the less able, and most JTEs will check "everything" in Japanese anyway. I think it wastes time to explain in two languages, and let's face it, how useful is a word like 'plural' anyway (other than in grammar explanations, I mean). I can see the argument for English-only in the abstract but the sad reality is that many classes do little more than get good at following imperatives and explanations about the language, as what should be the focus gets submerged in a wall of sound.

An analogy I'd make would be between the definitions versus actual authentic examples in a dictionary. Of course the definitions are in a way interesting and useful, and I have to admit to liking to read the J ones in bilingualized (E-E-J) dictionaries, but they are not the language proper (unless we mean in terms of a defining vocabulary, which forms a sublanguage all of its own), and the focus should be on the examples, which usually contain little from the definition, which is how it should be.

I think it is unfair to ask if he is "in fact doing a communicative class" as a) truly communicative methodology isn't the norm in J English school classes (nor many other places really, IMHO) and b) correction is, like it or not, actually a form of communication. Let's not read too much into things or criticize him unduly.


Yeah we don't know what is going on there. To be fair it may have just occurred.to. him to do it like that
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it depends on the relationship with the JTE.
Idealy the NET speaks English and the JTE speaks both languages and explains in Japanese when needed.

But every JTE has his/her own personality and how the two get along is key.
Some might want to use a lot of English and some might speak too much Japanese.
The ones that speak so much Japanese since they do not want to show how bad their English is create a gulf in the class between the NET and the students, and the NET can get stuck in a role that is frustrating.

I used to think that English only was the way to go unless the students were at such a low level. But then I noticed an Australian teacher use quite a bit of Japanese in class and he established great rapport.
I borrowed from him and my university boss compared me favorably to other teachers who insisted on English all the time
I do find that students want to talk to the NET, it is just that many can barely say anything.

The problem comes with team teaching since sometimes the NET might feel he/she is walking on eggshells, especially when the co-teacher is the boss and it is like you are getting observed every week.
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RM1983



Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 2:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffyhamster wrote:
@RM1983: The flip side of the more able is the less able, and most JTEs will check "everything" in Japanese anyway. I think it wastes time to explain in two languages, and let's face it, how useful is a word like 'plural' anyway (other than in grammar explanations, I mean). I can see the argument for English-only in the abstract but the sad reality is that many classes do little more than get good at following imperatives and explanations about the language, as what should be the focus gets submerged in a wall of sound.

An analogy I'd make would be between the definitions versus actual authentic examples in a dictionary. Of course the definitions are in a way interesting and useful, and I have to admit to liking to read the J ones in bilingualized (E-E-J) dictionaries, but they are not the language proper (unless we mean in terms of a defining vocabulary, which forms a sublanguage all of its own), and the focus should be on the examples, which usually contain little from the definition, which is how it should be.

I think it is unfair to ask if he is "in fact doing a communicative class" as a) truly communicative methodology isn't the norm in J English school classes (nor many other places really, IMHO) and b) correction (and reformulation etc) is, like it or not, actually a form of communication. Let's not read too much into things or criticize him unduly.


My view is that the more able should get a chance of understanding without Japanese, and that the inbetween students should get at least a shot at understanding it or having a chance at developing the means to figure it out (be that from a friend or outside resource or whatever it may be).

I wouldn't use the actual word "plural" to show the concept, in fact it may be a bad example as it is quite a well known and relatively easy concept I think.

But this teacher has decided that it'd be better to explain in Japanese. That's OK, in fact I think that this argument is often over-inflated in terms of importance because the armies of CELTA grads who were told to never use it.

So while that is my view, I wouldn't say using a LITTLE Japanese is a hanging offence!
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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Location: UK > China > Japan > UK again

PostPosted: Fri Dec 25, 2015 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't mind the CELTArers banging on quite so much, IF they contextualized the language that well, but most of the examples I've seen being pushed by them are mediocre at best and shockingly contrived at worst - not far off some JTEs' efforts, in other words. They seem to have forgotten how to actually communicate in the scramble to be seen to be teaching (Englishdroid wasn't far off with that pic of circus poodles jumping through hoops). So any "chances of understanding" really depend on what's being offered to understand - mere methodology, instructions and explanationese, or (at least "additionally") the actual wider outside language brought in and convincingly contextualized. I have time for the latter (in English, obviously) but little for the former (or don't really care what language that's in).
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Inflames



Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 486

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mitsui wrote:
I think it depends on the relationship with the JTE.
Idealy the NET speaks English and the JTE speaks both languages and explains in Japanese when needed.


How exactly is this ideal? Ideally I think that there should be one teacher who has a high level of English and Japanese ability, not two. I've never understood the logic of it being okay for one teacher to speak Japanese but it isn't okay for the other teacher to.

mitsui wrote:

I used to think that English only was the way to go unless the students were at such a low level. But then I noticed an Australian teacher use quite a bit of Japanese in class and he established great rapport.
I borrowed from him and my university boss compared me favorably to other teachers who insisted on English all the time
I do find that students want to talk to the NET, it is just that many can barely say anything.

The problem comes with team teaching since sometimes the NET might feel he/she is walking on eggshells, especially when the co-teacher is the boss and it is like you are getting observed every week.


Honestly my students know I speak Japanese as I explain all the class rules in Japanese and sometimes tell stories in Japanese as well. The thing a lot of English teachers mess up when speaking Japanese is that they don't sound like a teacher, and then have issues because of that.

A lot depends on how motivated students are - if students aren't motivated they'll simply tune out if they don't understand.
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TokyoLiz



Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan

PostPosted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 5:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fluffy, bear in mind that CELTA training is only the most basic teacher training, and the approaches they teach in the CELTA training are appropriate for teaching motivated adult learners.

A long time ago when I was a TESOL diploma student, our instructors drilled us in classic TESOL grammar presentation. Our instructors tore apart our teaching demonstrations over and over until we could do a decent job of contextualized grammar. Our instructors consoled us saying that we would get better at it when we did our practica (20 hours of classroom teaching and observation of veteran teachers). When I did my teacher training, the program was 300+ hours of classroom instruction plus practicum (now they have an internship program).

It took me a few months of working in full time teaching to get decent at grammar presentation for all levels (I taught newcomers to Canada and foreign students).

When I came to Japan on the JET Program, I had to switch gears from multilingual adult learner classrooms to monolingual junior high classrooms. I was glad I had a lot of insight into language aquisition from my teacher training and experience, but had to adapt a lot. I was mentored by some JTEs in my schools, some who were CELTA trained and fully bilingual.

About L1 use in the classroom - JTEs without second language aquisition knowledge can do a lot of damage to the students' English learning because they don't know when to use the L1. JTEs with sound language pedagogy are a joy to work with. My colleague at a private junior high does not use Japanese at all in her 3rd year English classes. In the high school, one skilled JTE who I observe occasionally almost exclusively teaches in English.

Both teachers have gotten their students into routines, which reduces instruction, and they scaffolded the students using the L1 and ramping up L2 use over months and years.

I also speak Japanese to the students when I tell stories, or review a language point. Sometimes, for the sake of consolidation of a lesson, especially when talking about cultural issues or learning strategies, it makes more sense to present it in Japanese.

Incidentally, of the 17 hours of teaching I do in a week, only four are team taught. We're phasing out team taught lessons at our school.
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fluffyhamster



Joined: 13 Mar 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm, well, one would think the CELTA is the most advanced teacher training possible from the way some people pump it up. Like any MA holder without a measly 6-hour observed teaching practice (not even a real practicum! Actual work placement, I mean) following questionable methods will have no experience or communicative instincts otherwise and resort to lecturing, or that one generally shouldn't teach in any way but the "approved", even when the people doing most of the grammar lecturing (going by the activities that they recommend) or disfunctional time-wasting are the so-called "communicative" diehards. I would definitely question your claim that CELTA approaches are appropriate for teaching motivated adult learners (see http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?p=1141490#1141490 etc). For a start, what does 'motivated' really mean here? That they will (now as adults) bite their tongues and put up with any old activities? Surprised Razz

I've pulled apart a number of "recommended" activities over the years, and where they all fall down is a lack of conversationally-convincing functions for the "exemplars" introduced, and an almost complete lack of understanding of discourse beyond the level of the (decontextualized) sentence, and of alternative exponents, etc etc etc. And even when "contextualized" (imposed by way of a read-aloud story, for example), some examples may make little sense due to being obviously invented "just for the purposes", and thus at odds with wider usage.

The impression one gets is that a sizeable number teachers only teach what is easy and convenient to teach, rather than putting themselves out that much of at all. (I particularly liked one recent spat, where I was apropos of nothing accused of being a mere "edutainer" and challenged to teach a point, and was grudgingly fobbed off with 'It's not bad if you have talkative students' [er, isn't that the whole point or aim?] when I produced a lesson plan that was clearly far superior to the one that had been cranked out in record time and under the heavy hand of CELTA-influenced, can-do "thinking". Still, at least a begrudging response beats the more usual ad hominems or stony silences! Twisted Evil Smile). Bottom line is that some teachers aren't really interested in improving their teaching and students' understanding, learning, and acquisition "blah blah blah", they just want to follow more or less prescribed methods that obviate the need for "too much" thinking. Job done, have a cuppa, feet up, it's not rocket science, etc etc. And of course the training establishment wants to continue to profit from its product regardless of the exact processes that may (or may not!) be involved. Hence the inevitable retardation due to the IMHO excessive reductionism - "This works, and nothing else will, or won't even come close". Such unshakeable faith! Shocked

From the sounds of it your TESOL dip did a pretty thorough job in comparison, but again, I would question the need for so much direct tearing apart. I recall what most put me on my communicative toes so to speak was simply reading stuff like Close's A Teachers' Grammar or Richards' paper on Present Perfect (in his The Context of Language Teaching), the former before I even took the CELTA. Observe (read about) others and/or their exemplars getting ripped apart and demolished rather than yourself, in other words. Very Happy


Last edited by fluffyhamster on Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:40 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mitsui



Joined: 10 Jun 2007
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Location: Kawasaki

PostPosted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well ideal considering where I work.
That is what I was told. I work at an old-fashioned and at times, toxic place.
I work at a low-level school where students do not have to study or do homework, yet all can ride the escalator up to the university.
Lots of students were sleeping this morning.

One problem are older teachers who do not speak well and rely on Japanese.
The younger ones are better but they get no respect, especially if female.
I wish there were more younger male JTEs so they could deal with the lazy boys.

The whole issue about using Japanese is about control, and at some places they want the NET to only use English.
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