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TokyoLiz
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1548
Location: Tokyo, Japan
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 Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 8:56 am Post subject: |
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Kzjohn, that's a heck of a resume  And great that your children are doing well for themselves.
I'm a Canadian, likely 20 years your junior, and my brother, my cousins and I don't anticipate a pension will be available for us once we hit 65. Many of my Japanese sempai say the same thing about Japan's pension system.
Your generation is likely to be the last to collect. |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007
Posts: 1562
Location: Kawasaki
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 9:41 am Post subject: |
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Many teachers are getting MAs.
I applied for a job in Tokyo a couple years ago. They got 165 applications for just six positions.
Some people were overseas so you get to compete with these teachers too.
Also, there have been more Americans working here than in the past. |
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Lamarr
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:04 pm Post subject: |
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| weigookin74 wrote: |
A MA won't save you as it's hyper competitive and many employers in Japan won't recognize you. As for the rest, I could just save myself the grief and choose to vote with my feet and go somewhere else where I wil make more money or have more savings potential. I still think you're going to be poor on 250,000 yen in Japan. You certaintly couldn't afford to have a family or a large apartment on that wage (assuming you married a local and stayed there).
Starting your own school is an idea. I can only imagine the start up costs in Japan and if you're kind of poor how hard it would be to save up the money.
I like Japan. I've visted a couple of times. I'd even like to try teaching there for a year. But not if I'm going tobe struggling to get by or have one good night out on the town make me feel stressed out for fear of running out of money. |
I'd only do an MA if you're in it for the long haul, not if you just want to do a year or two to see Japan and have fun. It is competitive but you've got to be in it to win it!
Plenty of employers recognize or even require an MA. I've got one friend who works full-time at a private uni where they require it. He's been there over 3 years and probably earns about 380k a month, plus bonuses. Another friend has taught Business English full-time for several years and is probably on even more than that, and again, it requires an MA. These guys had already done several years in Japan cutting their teeth doing JET or eikaiwa (back in the days when eikaiwa paid better).
As I've explained, you've got to be in it for the long haul if you want to be earning "serious" money, raise a family and so on, and you need to plan your career and finances very carefully. In the "good old days" before the recession in 2008, it was more possible. These days, it's a lot harder. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 1:27 pm Post subject: |
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| weigookin74 wrote: |
| Lamarr wrote: |
Estate agents usually like you to be earning 3 times the rent. So for 250k a month wage you'd be able to get a place for 80-85k a month max. Above that and it might be difficult. There are areas close to central Tokyo where you could get a two-bedroom place for that amount, especially on the east side "shitamachi", downtown area, which is a bit cheaper.
If you wanted to earn 350k a month, you'd need to give it a few years and plan how you're going to reach that. Unless you've already advanced your career elsewhere and can get something at the same level in Japan. It would take you years to reach anywhere near that level of salary with a bog standard eikaiwa or ALT job, and several promotions. Unless you did private work on the side, in which case you're not going to have much freetime.
If you want to aim to earn that amount, you need to be getting better-qualified, or else going self-employed and doing it yourself. You'd probably need to get an MA and either get into a uni, a good business teaching job, or a direct hire or private school ALT job to be earning that kind of money. |
A MA won't save you as it's hyper competitive and many employers in Japan won't recognize you. As for the rest, I could just save myself the grief and choose to vote with my feet and go somewhere else where I wil make more money or have more savings potential. I still think you're going to be poor on 250,000 yen in Japan. You certaintly couldn't afford to have a family or a large apartment on that wage (assuming you married a local and stayed there).
Starting your own school is an idea. I can only imagine the start up costs in Japan and if you're kind of poor how hard it would be to save up the money.
I like Japan. I've visted a couple of times. I'd even like to try teaching there for a year. But not if I'm going tobe struggling to get by or have one good night out on the town make me feel stressed out for fear of running out of money. |
Ive always said that you need a real interest in living here for it to be really worth it. If you don't like the look of the salaries - it probably isn't worth your time for just a year. Personally I didn't even really feel settled in here until I was about a year in
I'm doing the bog standard work and a few nights part time and I am nearly at 300000 a month, for a month I was doing cover work on Saturdays and I made it to about 330000 but I was pretty tired .
I think that on a general analysis you might miss a lot of the nuances that happen with people. You say the rent is high but then many people pay half the shown cost cos they live with a partner. Our flat is 100,000 , which means I pay 50,000 a month, which is around 1\5 of my salary (on a bad month)
I know of a guy whose father in law bought a house as a wedding present so no rent paid there at all. My gf works too, so there would be no reason for me to struggle as sole provider. Our household income is, at minimum, 500,000 per month so I think we could just about have a kid with that. Then bear in mind we have only been working here for about 3 years each, and it might not be so bad. We wouldn't be rich but we wouldn't be begging the bank for credit cards.
I actually make your argument to my gf every now and again, because she is Korean and I feel like I'd be much better off there. But she has a nice job here, with the chance for promotions and she isn't sure the Korean job market would be so welcoming to a young woman as the Japanese one has been. If not, then I've got a bigger income but I need to support two people on it.
She also doesn't think its a great idea to send your kid to a Korean public school, so we'd be looking at an expensive private one if we had a kid.
Also I've worked in Korea and it also isn't a great place to work IMO. Lots and lots of rubbish jobs out there and my friends.there who have gone into uni jobs there (more serious ESL types) say it isn't a great advancement. Its the "best dead end job" but still can be unrewarding.
Personally I think we will end up back there (just makes more sense with the support of her family etc), but I have big concerns about it and I'm not always sure it will be the best choice. I'd be very sad if she can't find a real good job after the start she has had in Japan. |
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Lamarr
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Mon Dec 28, 2015 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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| I suppose it's obvious really but having a partner or spouse (especially a Japanese one) does make things considerably easier and more affordable. A mate of mine and his wife live in a 3LDK apartment owned by her mother, so they get all that for nothing. They spent about 4 years living like that and saving before they had their first kid. He works a bunch of business classes while she does the housewife thing looking after the kids. He's probably earning in the region of 400k a month. Without the free apartment, they'd be paying over 100k a month for that size of place in the area they live in. They'd probably have to live in a smaller place, or further out, and things wouldn't be so cruisey. |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| RM1983 wrote: |
I'm doing the bog standard work and a few nights part time and I am nearly at 300000 a month…
…many people pay half the shown cost cos they live with a partner. Our flat is 100,000 , which means I pay 50,000 a month, which is around 1\5 of my salary (on a bad month)…
…I actually make your argument to my gf every now and again, because she is Korean and I feel like I'd be much better off there. But she has a nice job here, with the chance for promotions and she isn't sure the Korean job market would be so welcoming to a young woman as the Japanese one has been…
…She also doesn't think its a great idea to send your kid to a Korean public school, so we'd be looking at an expensive private one if we had a kid.
Also I've worked in Korea and it also isn't a great place to work IMO. Lots and lots of rubbish jobs out there and my friends.there who have gone into uni jobs there (more serious ESL types) say it isn't a great advancement. Its the "best dead end job" but still can be unrewarding.
Personally I think we will end up back there (just makes more sense with the support of her family etc), but I have big concerns about it and I'm not always sure it will be the best choice. |
Given what you’ve said above, I think you’re better off staying put…especially if you already have part time work set up and your girlfriend has a good job.
Not sure how long you’ve been in Japan, but the social environment can be quite jarring switching to Korea But…if you’ve been to both and she’s Korean, that point might be moot. But for child safety…maybe my memory doesn’t serve me well for Japan, but I think I’d rather raise a child there than in Korea.
The only counter arguments might be that a lot of jobs in K-land provide housing…and if you could get a spousal visa (F-visa), you might be able to pick up multiple jobs like you do there. But the F-visa jobs and university jobs (since you were talking about those) don’t usually pay for housing. Also, a lot of the F-visa jobs are part time.
Perusing a number of the different countries’ threads on Dave’s, it looks like a lot of teachers are thinking the grass is greener somewhere else. These days, I’m not sure it’s really the case. |
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moviefan1987
Joined: 23 Nov 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Perusing a number of the different countries’ threads on Dave’s, it looks like a lot of teachers are thinking the grass is greener somewhere else. These days, I’m not sure it’s really the case. |
This. I think TEFL in Japan isn't bad from an overall perspective. TEFL in Europe is largely subsistence wages. You would be lucky to do anything more than pay for rent and groceries with a TEFL job in Europe. TEFL in Latin America has always interested me but most jobs there are hourly and good pay would be about 8 dollars an hour there. Again, it's just covering your rent and groceries. TEFL in China and Korea could be good but I know people here in Japan that did it and they all say Japan is cleaner, safer, and more stable. The Middle East offers the best salaries but the restrictions there have always turned me off from seriously considering it.
When I worked the typical 250,000 yen a month job here, I was still able to pay my expenses, go out and do some traveling, and even save a bit every month.
Everyone here talks about university jobs in Japan being the pot of honey but I find that business english classes are a good gig. Good hourly rates, completion bonuses, and steady work offers once you prove to be good and reliable. But then it takes time to build a niche here. For the entry level TEFLer in Japan, it can be frustrating while other countries may offer better conditions initially. But if I were to settle permanently abroad, I would rather it be in Japan than Korea, China, or Vietnam. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah there is an awful lot of grass is greener and an awful lot of chasing rainbows going on. It's OK to be driven by money, but it's also distracting how that is so often the main focus of where the next hot spot is. If we look at it in broader terms than TEFL the difference between many of these places is quite small if not minute, like a few grand a year maximum.
That English Teacher X blog has it right, he tells of a married couple who moved to Saudi with a 5 year plan to get rich, they went all out on gear for their apt and made a big fuss of this plan, and they were back home within 6 months.
And I've been in a similar situation myself, I took a job in Korea I shouldntve because it was better than average pay, and I suffered for it as well. |
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RM1983
Joined: 03 Jan 2007
Posts: 360
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
| RM1983 wrote: |
I'm doing the bog standard work and a few nights part time and I am nearly at 300000 a month…
…many people pay half the shown cost cos they live with a partner. Our flat is 100,000 , which means I pay 50,000 a month, which is around 1\5 of my salary (on a bad month)…
…I actually make your argument to my gf every now and again, because she is Korean and I feel like I'd be much better off there. But she has a nice job here, with the chance for promotions and she isn't sure the Korean job market would be so welcoming to a young woman as the Japanese one has been…
…She also doesn't think its a great idea to send your kid to a Korean public school, so we'd be looking at an expensive private one if we had a kid.
Also I've worked in Korea and it also isn't a great place to work IMO. Lots and lots of rubbish jobs out there and my friends.there who have gone into uni jobs there (more serious ESL types) say it isn't a great advancement. Its the "best dead end job" but still can be unrewarding.
Personally I think we will end up back there (just makes more sense with the support of her family etc), but I have big concerns about it and I'm not always sure it will be the best choice. |
Given what you’ve said above, I think you’re better off staying put…especially if you already have part time work set up and your girlfriend has a good job.
Not sure how long you’ve been in Japan, but the social environment can be quite jarring switching to Korea But…if you’ve been to both and she’s Korean, that point might be moot. But for child safety…maybe my memory doesn’t serve me well for Japan, but I think I’d rather raise a child there than in Korea.
The only counter arguments might be that a lot of jobs in K-land provide housing…and if you could get a spousal visa (F-visa), you might be able to pick up multiple jobs like you do there. But the F-visa jobs and university jobs (since you were talking about those) don’t usually pay for housing. Also, a lot of the F-visa jobs are part time.
Perusing a number of the different countries’ threads on Dave’s, it looks like a lot of teachers are thinking the grass is greener somewhere else. These days, I’m not sure it’s really the case. |
It is annoying she isn't Japanese tbh. The marriage visa seems to only improve ones lot. We shall have to play it by ear! Of course there is another option and that is head back to the UK! |
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Lamarr
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Tue Dec 29, 2015 4:54 pm Post subject: |
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Totally agree with that. There's more to living in another country, and life in general, than simply getting paid. Plenty of people that move countries doing ESL aren't doing it for a "love" of the work, the English language, or a serious interest in the country. They're more interested in the escape, the travel, partying, getting rich quick, or breaking out of their tedious, monotonous life somewhere else. Those sorts of motivations have a limited shelf life and people eventually get disappointed, jaded or lose direction, without a more substantial, longer-term plan.
Best thing is to focus on making your life, your job or whatever better here and now, rather than thinking that simply running off to another place is going to magically fix it just like that, without any effort. It doesn't work like that. |
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rxk22
Joined: 19 May 2010
Posts: 1629
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 3:12 am Post subject: |
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[quote="steki47"]
| rxk22 wrote: |
My wife and I just had this conversation. Planning for retirement, don't include the pension. If we receive anything, it will be a nice extra. Sad but practical. |
Yep, I just opened up a brokerage account here. I have my own in the US. But tax implications in the future, upon repatriating my money to Japan, has me worried. So I am going to buy stocks here in Japan. Hopefully, I can buy a lot before the yen hits 150 to he dollar. Giving me a decent 20% automatic gain. Plus it gives me an automatic div hike |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 7:36 am Post subject: |
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| RM1983 wrote: |
| Yeah there is an awful lot of grass is greener and an awful lot of chasing rainbows going on. It's OK to be driven by money, but it's also distracting how that is so often the main focus of where the next hot spot is. |
Well, I mean things do cost money. So it’s certainly a real part of the equation especially when you’re contemplating starting a family. I wasn’t criticizing the search for greener grass in that sense. Sometimes, the grass is greener elsewhere. I probably should have put more emphasis on “these days”.
What I meant was, it seems most people are saying the grass is greener in other countries based on what they heard (and what may have been true) years ago, or just sometime in the past. A few years ago, I might have suggested Korea as a better place to work.
But given what salaries have become, even in universities, the cuts in public school funding for foreign teachers, and even people on F visas struggling to find good gigs, I say it’s better to stay put.
Also, since you have to consider your girlfriend’s employment, too…I mean…that’s another factor. If she’s got a good job there, then…you probably have a good setup there. Your circumstances and where you are in your life make a difference, too.
So, that’s what I was thinking about when reading your post.
And speaking of the ME, I’d considered working there, too. But even there, salaries and conditions are not as good as they were. It could depend on your qualifications, too….But the other thing is, every time I ran a search to get information from people who have worked there, the top youtube hit was a video of a guy who looked worse off than the two guys in this thread's OP. So….no thanks to that place. |
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isitts
Joined: 04 Jun 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Korea
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Lamarr wrote: |
| Totally agree with that. There's more to living in another country, and life in general, than simply getting paid. Plenty of people that move countries doing ESL aren't doing it for a "love" of the work, the English language, or a serious interest in the country. |
Definitely agree with this.
| Lamarr wrote: |
| …or breaking out of their tedious, monotonous life somewhere else. Those sorts of motivations have a limited shelf life and people eventually get disappointed, jaded or lose direction, without a more substantial, longer-term plan. |
I think breaking out of the monotony can be good sometimes. But it depends on your circumstances in life…And I agree that it does have a limited shelf-life.
| Lamarr wrote: |
| Best thing is to focus on making your life, your job or whatever better here and now, rather than thinking that simply running off to another place is going to magically fix it just like that, without any effort. It doesn't work like that. |
I agree with this in principal, but have so far been unable to put this into practice much ^^; At the risk of giving too much disclosure and seeming a hypocrite in spite of the advice I’ve given, I am looking to change countries soon. Part of it is to break up the monotony. But part of it is because I still can…because of my circumstances and where I am in my life. Certainly, it’s not as easy (practically or mentally) as it used to be. So I hope I won’t be hopping too many more times.
I won’t be doing this for a magical fix. I don’t expect the grass to be greener. I don’t expect to make more money. But it should let me stay in this industry a while longer than if I were to stay here. That’s based on my circumstances. If my circumstances were more like RM’s, then I’d probably stay put. |
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Lamarr
Joined: 27 Sep 2010
Posts: 190
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| Posted: Wed Dec 30, 2015 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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| isitts wrote: |
I think breaking out of the monotony can be good sometimes. But it depends on your circumstances in life…And I agree that it does have a limited shelf-life. |
I know what you mean. You can get stuck in a rut and a change of scene can be refreshing. I'm not saying people shouldn't change scene, change jobs or move to another country, but I think you've got to focus first and foremost on what it is you want to get out of your work and your life, and what goals you want to aim for. If you can work that out first, then change jobs or countries as part of that process, with those longer-term goals in mind, you'll probably be better off in the long run, or at least have something to keep working towards and keep yourself more grounded and focused.
I've seen TEFLers and global traveller types who seem to drift around countries, as if they're searching for something they can't find, or trying to run away from something they don't want to deal with. It's as if they expect something to just pop up and present itself along the way, and everything will magically fall into place.
That said, plenty of people back home drift along in jobs they don't want to do. It's just another manifestation of the same thing. |
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moviefan1987
Joined: 23 Nov 2015
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Thu Dec 31, 2015 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| That English Teacher X blog has it right, he tells of a married couple who moved to Saudi with a 5 year plan to get rich, they went all out on gear for their apt and made a big fuss of this plan, and they were back home within 6 months. |
Ahh, English Teacher X. The guy is a true legend in The TEFL universe. If nothing else, his life story shows how environment and work conditions are as much as important as the country you are in as a determiner of happiness and and quality of life. |
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