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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:10 pm Post subject: |
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@Nomad Soul - I never said I would do a warmer and homework check in a demo, I was just saying that 30 mins is such a short amount of time given that I have taught 2-3 hour lessons for quite some time. Also, my comments about my distaste for demos stems from the fact that I have never had to do one. In my ten years in Asia, I have heard only low level young learners/ kindy classes that require them. Indeed, I have worked at two of the schools that Luke mentioned, who claims you definitely need to do a demo, but I didn't have to do one. Hence my experiences differs to others and thus has shaped my view of demo lessons. Surely you can see that now.
I hope this clears up my perceived lack of teaching confidence issue with you. Lastly, not that I equate TEFL with some loftier professions, but if say an engineer or surgeon goes for a position, would they be required to do a demo? Maybe a quick 30 min of open heart surgery just to see if you're doing it right? Yes, that was in jest, but experience and qualifications and great references hasn't hurt me so far in Asia, which is where Vietnam is the last time I looked. I am sure you're ten times better qualified and a lot more experienced than me, so I am sure this conversation is hurting your ego; however, for the last time, I have worked for some good schools in Asia, all of which have done things by the book - work permit, work visa, professional development and I have never had to do a demo lesson to get the job.
@ Luke. Maybe start a pole. I would love to see how many teachers in SE Asia who teach mainly adults/ AE / BE have had to do a demo and maybe one for those who teach YL. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2016 8:33 am Post subject: |
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| kurtz wrote: |
@Nomad Soul - I never said I would do a warmer and homework check in a demo, I was just saying that 30 mins is such a short amount of time given that I have taught 2-3 hour lessons for quite some time. Also, my comments about my distaste for demos stems from the fact that I have never had to do one. In my ten years in Asia, I have heard only low level young learners/ kindy classes that require them. Indeed, I have worked at two of the schools that Luke mentioned, who claims you definitely need to do a demo, but I didn't have to do one. Hence my experiences differs to others and thus has shaped my view of demo lessons. Surely you can see that now.
I hope this clears up my perceived lack of teaching confidence issue with you.
....
Experience and qualifications and great references hasn't hurt me so far in Asia, which is where Vietnam is the last time I looked. I am sure you're ten times better qualified and a lot more experienced than me, so I am sure this conversation is hurting your ego; however, for the last time, I have worked for some good schools in Asia, all of which have done things by the book - work permit, work visa, professional development and I have never had to do a demo lesson to get the job. |
No, this discussion has nothing to do with my ego; despite my academic credentials and experience as a teacher trainer, I have no qualms about doing a demo for a teaching or training position. However, the topic continues to touch a raw nerve for you and your ego since you're the one who mentioned that you're "an experienced teacher who thinks 30 min demos represents a pretty crappy school" and that demos are appropriate for "flotsam coming through the door." I question the real reason behind your negative opinion about demos. You've never done one but have this flawed reality and logic about what it entails and why prospective employers might require one. (For example, if your teaching style is linear but the prospective employer is looking for a more holistic approach, then you'd likely not be a good fit.) Moreover, you've indicated more than once that you're an experienced teacher. If you personally were confident of that statement, then a short demo is a mere speed bump on the road. Your overreaction is unwarranted.
A demo is essentially the applicant supporting what they said they can do as stated on their resume/CV. It's not intended to be a full-blown lesson from beginning to end, but rather, a taste of the teacher's English language knowledge, teaching skills, and ability to engage the students. (In fact, demos can also entail a short, written lesson plan and the applicant explaining the whats, hows, and whys of the lesson to the interviewers.) Whatever part of the lesson that doesn't get covered during the demo is described to the interviewers. For example, something like, "At this point, I would have the students come together for a class discussion on the three ideas their groups came up with and the reasons for their choices. As a class, they would then rank the ideas in order of priority." And so on. Frankly, I tend to see demo lessons as a positive; they're an opportunity to show my best strategies and activities.
| and kurtz wrote: |
| @ Luke. Maybe start a pole. I would love to see how many teachers in SE Asia who teach mainly adults/ AE / BE have had to do a demo and maybe one for those who teach YL. |
My comments about demo lessons weren't limited to Vietnam; even some US language schools and university IEPs expect one. There's no universal rule. It's an employer's prerogative (globally), as a business/HR decision, whether to require a demo at any particular time when recruiting for openings. Therefore, a poll wouldn't make much sense. But if you really want to survey other teachers, initiate a poll yourself instead of hinting that ExpatLuke create it.
Anyway, seems we'll have to agree to disagree. |
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TRH
Joined: 27 Oct 2011
Posts: 340
Location: Hawaii
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 10:32 pm Post subject: |
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Allow me to posit a rhetorical question:
Other than ESL, are there fields of teaching that require demo lessons? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 2:48 am Post subject: |
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| TRH wrote: |
| Other than ESL, are there fields of teaching that require demo lessons? |
It's not even a universal requirement for ESOL. Again, having job applicants do a demo is a business decision based on the employer's hiring practices, which, for some, may also align with mandated educational standards and accreditation criteria. But yes, teachers in other fields often give a demo as part of the interview process --- it's not uncommon (do an Internet search on teacher demo lesson). |
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kurtz
Joined: 12 Mar 2008
Posts: 518
Location: Phaic Tan
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| Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:35 pm Post subject: |
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I meant poll, not pole.......never post first thing in the morning
Yes, let's agree to disagree. I think if a teacher is straight off the CELTA and has zero real life teaching experience, MAYBE a demo is appropriate before a contract is signed. If a teacher has experience and references are checked, I don't think a demo is necessary. However, the teacher should be observed after the contract is signed. Let's see that as a sort of quality control. That's been my experience anyways.
Piece....or is that peace! |
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deadlift
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 267
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| Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2016 11:05 pm Post subject: |
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I held 3 jobs when I was in VN from 2010 to 2015.
SEAMEO: no demo, or even interview. Walked in and was given a book and a room number.
ILA: no demo, just an interview.
RMIT: no demo, but I did need to talk the interviewers through a lesson. Later when I was on interview panels we didn't even do that, but we did ask specific questions about classroom teaching and expected detailed descriptions of teaching practice, with justification.
| expatluke wrote: |
| You don't have to demo at places like RMIT because it's a completely different type of school. It focuses on academic English, and has teachers who do lecturing as their primary form of teaching. |
Not true. As Sgt Welsh said, the focus on academic English only came in at the higher levels. Student centred teaching was expected and there was absolutely no lecturing allowed. One teacher was shunted before finishing probation for just that. The style of the classes would not differ much from an ILA lesson save the length and intensity.
| nomad soul wrote: |
| Other than ESL, are there fields of teaching that require demo lessons? |
In the interview for my current university student services job in Aus I was asked to deliver a short presentation on a topic, as if to students. Not a lesson per se, but an example of my ability to speak on a topic.
My position on demo lessons is that I wouldn't bother with a school that demanded one. I have no problem with asking talking through a lesson as in my experience that is an excellent way to get an impression of a teacher's abilities. |
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ExpatLuke
Joined: 11 Feb 2012
Posts: 744
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 5:48 am Post subject: |
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| deadlift wrote: |
My position on demo lessons is that I wouldn't bother with a school that demanded one. I have no problem with asking talking through a lesson as in my experience that is an excellent way to get an impression of a teacher's abilities. |
I completely disagree, but it seems we have to just settle with the fact that there are differing opinions on the matter. I was prepared for the fact that I would be asked to deliver demos from the earliest phase of my ESL training, so its probably more ingrained in me than others.
ILA Danang does ask for demo lessons, as does Apollo Danang. But I think it's a more recent addition to their hiring process. Like I said in my original post, the current trend, at least in Danang, seems to be that more and more places are asking for them. I could make an extensive list of the language centers here which I have confirmed reports of applicants being asked to deliver demos, and the list would include the "top 3" schools in town. |
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skarper
Joined: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 477
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| Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2016 8:09 am Post subject: |
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In some ways I'm surprised this topic is still rumbling on - but then again maybe not surprised really.
If it is indeed correct that demo lessons are becoming standard in top and mid tier schools then it is probably for the better.
Assuming the observer of the demo lesson knows what they are about - quite a big assumption I know - they will eliminate large numbers of teachers who while able to talk a good lesson cannot teach one.
If the observer is a clueless management stooge then better to find out before taking on a job than afterwards. So I believe we have a 'win-win'.
I have worked alongside some right wasters who I wish had been weeded out at interview or by a demo lesson.
We like to imagine a CELTA makes a great teacher. Well - it all depends. If you put in the hours and show willing you will pass a CELTA. Most people drop out or fail to complete one or more elements. Few get to the final assessment and fail.
But many people are unwilling to build on what the CELTA teaches them or even apply the basics. A lot go back to their old bad habits or follow their own ideas rather than apply the basic methods. I have seen both these happen more than once.
Even people with a DELTA are not guaranteed to deliver in the class room. Some are burnt out. Others have an eye on management or are working on an MA.
Another thing with asking for a demo lesson is perhaps the best thing. It weeds out lazy teachers before you even schedule the demo. |
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