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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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 Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:39 pm Post subject: |
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| So if I'm reading that right, a state-level apostille is enough for someone from Pennsylvania (which is under the jurisdiction of the New York consulate), but a resident of North Dakota would need a federal apostille (as they're only covered by the embassy in D.C.). Is that right? |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I don't see that at all in the Consulate's instructions:
If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check our service area map) over you state, you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it. (Please note that your legalization application may be rejected by the Embassy/Consulate General that does not hold consular jurisdiction over the state where your document is executed.
It says that depending upon the jurisdiction, the U.S. State Department apostillization may not be needed before the documents are apostillized by the Chinese General Consulate.
Just make sure that you send your papers to the correct general consulate.
Years ago, residents of only some American states needed to go through this rigmarole. |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:02 pm Post subject: |
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...But if the apostille from the Chinese consulate is the endgame here (which a previous post suggests - something about the automated system needing something from the applicant's local embassy or consulate), why would it be necessary to keep going on to get the federal apostille?
If not, then I'm trying to figure out if it's necessary for Americans to get the degree authenticated by all levels if government or if the top level is enough. It seems to me that if the US State Department will give an apostille without previously getting one from Pennsylvania, that should be good enough (federal trumps everything beneath it, and I'm sure people from smaller countries like New Zealand and Ireland don't need to go through so many levels of government), right? I only have two or three months or so to get all of this done by proxy, so naturally I don't want to waste my time and money going beyond what's absolutely necessary. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| wawaguagua wrote: |
I'm trying to figure out if it's necessary for Americans to get the degree authenticated by all levels if government or if the top level is enough. It seems to me that if the US State Department will give an apostille without previously getting one from Pennsylvania, that should be good enough (federal trumps everything beneath it.
....
I only have two or three months or so to get all of this done by proxy, so naturally I don't want to waste my time and money going beyond what's absolutely necessary. |
Discussed at length on Do Not Recognise My School on Approv.ed List. |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:55 am Post subject: |
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It's still not clear why I would need to get my degree authenticated all the way to the federal level. I come from Pennsylvania, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Chinese consulate in New York City (I'm not making an educated guess here, I know it to be fact). If the Chinese consulate will stamp my degree after getting authenticated at the state level, from the Pennsylvania State Department, it seems unnecessary to get the federal authentication. If the state level is enough for the consulate over there to say, “this is a real degree,” and put their stamp on it, isn't hat then good enough for the RP-issuing authorities here in China?
Also, does anyone here have any idea if authenticating a transcript instead of the actual degree is good enough? I saw someone else mention that before, but I can't find it now. It would save my pretty diploma from being tarnished with a bunch of ugly stamps. The only potential downside is the headache of having to translate the transcript into Chinese, but that's less of a headache than having to send my precious diploma to a million places through courier, with all the risks of being lost forever along the way. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 6:42 am Post subject: |
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| wawaguagua wrote: |
| It's still not clear why I would need to get my degree authenticated all the way to the federal level. I come from Pennsylvania, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Chinese consulate in New York City (I'm not making an educated guess here, I know it to be fact). If the Chinese consulate will stamp my degree after getting authenticated at the state level, from the Pennsylvania State Department, it seems unnecessary to get the federal authentication. If the state level is enough for the consulate over there to say, “this is a real degree,” and put their stamp on it, isn't hat then good enough for the RP-issuing authorities here in China? |
Per the linked thread provided in my previous post:
| Quote: |
Step 3
If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check ourservice area map) over [your] state, you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it.
Source: http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/gzrz/rzcx/ |
So if there's a Chinese Consulate-General in Pennsylvania on the list (for NY), you're not required to submit your diploma to the fed level (US State Dept.). However, if your university is in NY, your university registrar must first notarize the diploma (Step 1) before it gets to NY's state Secretary of State for authentication (Step 2):
| Quote: |
Where do I obtain a copy of my Diploma or other Educational Documents?
Educational documents such as transcripts, diplomas or certificates must be obtained from an official of the school, college or university that you attended.
What type of certification must my document(s) contain before requesting an Apostille or a Certificate of Authentication from the New York Department of State?
Educational documents submitted to the New York Department of State for an Apostille or Certificate of Authentication must first be certified by an official at the educational institution attesting that the document is an official record or a true copy of the original document. The official's signature then must be notarized by a notary public. The notary public's signature must then be certified by the County Clerk in the county where the notary public is qualified to certify. (My note: This is an extra step before it goes to NY's state notary.)
Source: NY Apostille or Certificate of Authentication |
Read the entire thread I linked to (warts and all). |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| wawaguagua wrote: |
| It's still not clear why I would need to get my degree authenticated all the way to the federal level. I come from Pennsylvania, which falls under the jurisdiction of the Chinese consulate in New York City (I'm not making an educated guess here, I know it to be fact). If the Chinese consulate will stamp my degree after getting authenticated at the state level, from the Pennsylvania State Department, it seems unnecessary to get the federal authentication. If the state level is enough for the consulate over there to say, “this is a real degree,” and put their stamp on it, isn't hat then good enough for the RP-issuing authorities here in China? |
Per the linked thread provided in my previous post:
| Quote: |
Step 3
If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check ourservice area map) over [your] state, you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it.
Source: http://www.china-embassy.org/eng/ywzn/lsyw/gzrz/rzcx/ |
So if there's a Chinese Consulate-General in Pennsylvania on the list (for NY), you're not required to submit your diploma to the fed level (US State Dept.). However, if your university is in NY, your university registrar must first notarize the diploma (Step 1) before it gets to NY's state Secretary of State for authentication (Step 2):
| Quote: |
Where do I obtain a copy of my Diploma or other Educational Documents?
Educational documents such as transcripts, diplomas or certificates must be obtained from an official of the school, college or university that you attended.
What type of certification must my document(s) contain before requesting an Apostille or a Certificate of Authentication from the New York Department of State?
Educational documents submitted to the New York Department of State for an Apostille or Certificate of Authentication must first be certified by an official at the educational institution attesting that the document is an official record or a true copy of the original document. The official's signature then must be notarized by a notary public. The notary public's signature must then be certified by the County Clerk in the county where the notary public is qualified to certify. (My note: This is an extra step before it goes to NY's state notary.)
Source: NY Apostille or Certificate of Authentication |
Read the entire thread I linked to (warts and all). |
Thank you. It's a sound answer, though I should clarify that I and my alma mater both hail from Pennsylvania and the consulate-general that holds jurisdiction for Pennsylvania is in New York, not the other way around (I got my initial Z visa three years ago from the NY consulate).
I'm sure I come across a bit dumb or petulant for needing all of this bureaucratic baggage spelled out in simple English, but thanks for being patient about it. The process is long and daunting, and can require up to five levels of notarization/authentication, so I need to make sure whether or not all of those levels are necessary. It now seems that only three of them are needed.
So it sounds like all I have to do in my case is:
1. Contact my university's registrar and get them to notarize some proof of my degree completion (my original diploma sent back to them by mail, or a newly-produced transcript or degree copy).
2. Have the notarized degree/transcript/copy sent along to the State Department in PA (which is conveniently my home state and the place of issue for my degree) for authentication.
3. Get a third-party service to take my authenticated document to the Chinese consulate-general in NYC for final approval.
4. Have it sent back, hopefully in one piece.
Seems simple enough now that it's all spelled out. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:36 am Post subject: |
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| wawaguagua wrote: |
Thank you. It's a sound answer, though I should clarify that I and my alma mater both hail from Pennsylvania and the consulate-general that holds jurisdiction for Pennsylvania is in New York, not the other way around (I got my initial Z visa three years ago from the NY consulate).
I'm sure I come across a bit dumb or petulant for needing all of this bureaucratic baggage spelled out in simple English, but thanks for being patient about it. The process is long and daunting, and can require up to five levels of notarization/authentication, so I need to make sure whether or not all of those levels are necessary. It now seems that only three of them are needed. |
Sorry for getting the jurisdictions backwards. Your registrar's office in PA might facilitate the state's part of the process for you. Mine did -- they notarized my diploma and then had it couriered over to the state's SoS for authentication before mailing it back to me. It took about 2 weeks. Ask your uni registrar if they offer this service since notarizations are a common function of their office. |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 8:43 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| wawaguagua wrote: |
Thank you. It's a sound answer, though I should clarify that I and my alma mater both hail from Pennsylvania and the consulate-general that holds jurisdiction for Pennsylvania is in New York, not the other way around (I got my initial Z visa three years ago from the NY consulate).
I'm sure I come across a bit dumb or petulant for needing all of this bureaucratic baggage spelled out in simple English, but thanks for being patient about it. The process is long and daunting, and can require up to five levels of notarization/authentication, so I need to make sure whether or not all of those levels are necessary. It now seems that only three of them are needed. |
Sorry for getting the jurisdictions backwards. Your registrar's office in PA might facilitate the state's part of the process for you. Mine did -- they notarized my diploma and then had it couriered over to the state's SoS for authentication before mailing it back to me. It took about 2 weeks. Ask your uni registrar if they offer this service since notarizations are a common function of their office. |
Yep... That sounds a lot easier than the generalized potential process I've seen spelled out elsewhere (which would include a lot of back-and-forth involving a local notary, a county clerk, the state, the feds, and finally the Chinese consulate). |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| wawaguagua wrote: |
It's still not clear why I would need to get my degree authenticated all the way to the federal level.
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You know what? You're right. It's not clear why, so you should be exempt. Go ahead and do it the way you think it should be done. The rules are stupid and senseless, and after all, you're an American. You don't have to follow pointless and stupid rules. We Americans have our own stupid and senseless rules, so that should be good enough.
And you can quote me on that.
And don't bother with having your degree apostilled. Don't bother with having your transcripts authenticated either. You have rights. You're an American, a leader of the free world. Do it your way. When you arrive, tell your students the error of their government's ways.
Skip all that cr*p and just apply for a tourist visa and go job hunting when you arrive. Their visa restrictions are stupid and pointless too.
You can quote me on that when you arrive as well. |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:12 am Post subject: |
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| OhBudPowellWhereArtThou wrote: |
| wawaguagua wrote: |
It's still not clear why I would need to get my degree authenticated all the way to the federal level.
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You know what? You're right. It's not clear why, so you should be exempt. Go ahead and do it the way you think it should be done. The rules are stupid and senseless, and after all, you're an American. You don't have to follow pointless and stupid rules. We Americans have our own stupid and senseless rules, so that should be good enough.
And you can quote me on that.
And don't bother with having your degree apostilled. Don't bother with having your transcripts authenticated either. You have rights. You're an American, a leader of the free world. Do it your way. When you arrive, tell your students the error of their government's ways.
Skip all that cr*p and just apply for a tourist visa and go job hunting when you arrive. Their visa restrictions are stupid and pointless too.
You can quote me on that when you arrive as well. |
What are you getting so irritable about? 
The new rules, as I see them printed, require authentication as far as it is required from my local Chinese embassy or consulate. It appears to me that getting to that point only involves authenticating from the state level and not the federal level, which appears to be the case from all of the information available from the Chinese consular websites (including both the one you've posted and the one specific to New York, which is my designated consulate as a legal resident of Pennsylvania).
If I'm missing something, please, please point out where a federal authentication is necessary for people from Pennsylvania (or any other state under the jurisdiction of the consulate-generals located in NY, SF, LA, Chicago, or Houston.) If I'm missing something, which I very well may be, it would be very kind of you to point it out.
While I appreciate anyone who takes the time to give advice, it's useful to pay attention to the actual details of the situation of the person requesting said advice before giving any. If so, you would have realized that I'm already living and working in China, on a valid residence permit, and I've been here for three years already. To date I'm not even sure if this new protocol even applies to my province yet, as no one in my current or former FAO has heard anything about it yet. I'm just trying to take the initiative to get this done in anticipation that it'll affect me in the near or distant future. If that's wrong, please shoot me. |
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wawaguagua
Joined: 10 Feb 2013
Posts: 190
Location: China
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:30 am Post subject: |
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From the embassy website:
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Step 1 Have your document notarized by a local notary public unless it is an original certified copy/certification issued by a competent Federal/ State/local Office.
Ø Step 2 The document needs further to be authenticated by the Secretary of the State where it is executed. Some states require that the document be certified by the County Clerk first. For Federally issued certifications, skip this step, go directly to Step 3. |
Okay. That's straightforward.
| Quote: |
| Ø Step 3 If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check ourservice area map) over you state, |
...One does...
| Quote: |
| you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; |
...Okay, so far so good....
| Quote: |
if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it.
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...Aaaand, they've lost me. It seems to be conveying one of the following messages:
1. The consulate-general with jurisdiction over my state will approve documents authenticated at the level of my state government for use in China, without further need for a federal authentication.
2. The wording is very poor and I still need to get the federal authentication before I can submit it to the consulate-general holding jurisdiction over my state. If this is the case, it's confusing for them to put the direction to authenticate from the federal State Department after instructing me to submit my document to the consulate-general. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2016 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| wawaguagua wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Step 3 If one of the Chinese Consulate-Generals holds consular jurisdiction (click to check ourservice area map) over you state, |
...One does...
| Quote: |
| you may submit your document to that Consulate-General for final legalization; |
...Okay, so far so good....
| Quote: |
| if not, please get your document authenticated by the U. S. State Department before the Chinese Embassy can finally legalize it. |
...Aaaand, they've lost me. It seems to be conveying one of the following messages:
1. The consulate-general with jurisdiction over my state will approve documents authenticated at the level of my state government for use in China, without further need for a federal authentication.
2. The wording is very poor and I still need to get the federal authentication before I can submit it to the consulate-general holding jurisdiction over my state. If this is the case, it's confusing for them to put the direction to authenticate from the federal State Department after instructing me to submit my document to the consulate-general. |
Don't over-think this. You're not required to submit your diploma to the fed level; your state is listed under one of the Chinese Consulates General.
However, none of the numerous territories of the US (i.e., Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Guam, U.S. Virgin Islands, etc.) are on that list and therefore, fall under that "if not" US State Dept requirement. |
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kona
Joined: 17 Sep 2011
Posts: 188
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| On a side note, I can't find anything that says the PRC is a signatory to the Hague convention, so it's strange to me that some people are saying an apostille is required. |
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OhBudPowellWhereArtThou
Joined: 02 Jun 2015
Posts: 1168
Location: Since 2003
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| Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 10:52 pm Post subject: |
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The PRC signed on in 2004, but apparently, since then, the PRC has backed out of it (along with several other agreements). There's a link (did you read it?) in this thread that indicates that only HK and Macau are obligated to the accord.
The reason why people who attend mainland schools must have their degrees, etc. apostilled is because the Hague agreement doesn't apply to the mainland. Getting your paperwork worked over is a pain, but think of all the cheap DVDs you can buy! The Hague agreement and the Dayton accord that the PRC signed a dozen years ago was an agreement to protect intellectual rights. The Dayton Agreement didn't last long either. |
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