Job Discussion Forums

[estanton]

Thinking about various posts I've seen on this board I was struck with the desire to be very grandiose and philosophical and ask the (way too big) question:

What are English teachers doing in Mexico and to Mexico? Are they helping the country become more modern? Are they helping it fight modernity?

I've also thought abot it in the sense that, in tecahig English in Mexico as a US citizen, i will be seen as a representative of a culture that many mexicans have a love-hate relationship with (from what I hear.) Of course, many Mexicans go to America every year, so to some people it must seem like the holy Grail or something.

I wonder what kind of representative of my country I can or should be.

And also...what are people like us looking for in Mexico?

I'm looking for adventure, a new start (finally getting out of my hometown), and possibly a career (especially if more areas of the world enter the global economy and need to speak English). I also miss the crowded, smelly, animal-filled streets I saw in India. The U.S. is very clean and fairly efficient, but it can also get boring to live in.

I'm not in Mexico yet; flying into Guadalajara on Saturday. I think it will be many months before I have anything to say about this topic myself, but...being the grandiose philosophical thinker that i am I thought it would just be itneresting to hear what others have to say, and maybe I can add my own thoughts in a few months.

I can predict the general sense of two people's responses already. I'm not really wanting to start another war here, just wondering about personal responses to the above question.

Actually, I think maybe there should be a whole separate area of Dave's called the "Yo mama" forum, where people can respond to each other with broad and stereotyped insults .

I admit that insults can be creative and a way to let out your energy, if they're not taken too seriously, but I personally am not too into reading many pages of them on this forum, especially when there are actual interesting things people could be talking about instead.

So...try to keep your insults out of things, or maybe at least make "yo mama" jokes out of your posts in the future. It would be more fun for the rest of us.

About the question...I may be totally wrong because I've never been there, but it seems to me whatever you go to a place with the intention of doing, you'll probably not totally do it. If you want to make mexico more corporate and capitalist, you might end up getting to like parts of the country that don't fit with that idea. Or if you want to go help the poor, you might find that some modern technology would be an effective way of doing that.

or whatever. tell me to shut up if I'm wrong . Just trying to get people out of the roles they've settled into.

and if you think this is all too abstract and impractical, don't respond. I certainly will not be offended...

you all have jobs to do.

(and I will in a few weeks. Getting very psyched about my move!)

estanton

[Bobbie Jo]

What are English teachers doing in Mexico and to Mexico?

Well I guess I should fess up and let everyone know that I have been reading for a while and I have felt like I was leering. Anyway, this post got me thinking so I thought I would finally jump in.

When I first went to Mexico a year ago I wondered what my "true" motivation was. Frankly I think I knew it was purely hedonistic, however I did fantasize for a time that it was truly a desire to help. I left the corporate world, sold everything I owned and took off to a place that was completely foreign to me. I discovered along the way that my motivation changed. I think initially it was a way to make money and live in a different place but once I started teaching it became something bigger to me. I saw how I had an impact on my students and how my students had an impact on me. Knowledge is power in the end. I think the answer to the question for me is a mixture between hedonism (defined here as simply living life authentically) and empowering Mexican students (to do as they wish, i.e. further "Americanize" or protect their culture, land, etc.)

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble. I am new at this.

I wish you the best in GDL. It is a wonderful city that I hope to return to myself. If you are looking for any details about the city let me know, I may be able to help.

[some waygug-in]

I think we all have our own private reasons for wanting to live in Mexico.
For me, it was a fascination with the culture, music, food, everything. And I would be lying if I said I didn't have some hedonistic reasons as well. I am only human, after all.

Wanting to help out, sure . That too, but quite often I've found that trying to help here only makes things worse. Mexicans are quite adept at taking advantage of well-intentioned norteamericanos.

My first 2 jobs there were supposed to be working for non-profit quasi-charitable organizations. The first of which turned out to be a complete fraud, as in the place was a regular business that held "non-profit" status with the government to avoid paying taxes.

The second, was well meaning: they wanted to offer classes to less fortunate people and try and help the poor by giving them an opportunity for a better education. But what ended up happening was that most, if not all of the students turned out to be the kids of the richest of the rich and for all their well-meaning intentions, the school ended up supporting the class privilage system, and did nothing for the less fortunate.

Not that teaching rich kids is inherantly bad in itself, but when you advertize your school as being some kind of charitable organization, and then do the same as any other language school........

I think I've rambled enough.

Cheers

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[saraswati]

My original motivation for coming to Mexico was to study Spanish. After six months of that, I realized that I was perfectly happy in Mexico and didn't want to go back. More than a decade later, I still prefer to live here. The US is now just a place to do some shopping - chocolate oranges, tazo tea. I feel like a tourist whenever I go there.

As for my role, I have no agenda. I do not consciously behave in one way or another, but, being who I am, I've had students say that they had expected an American to be different. Good thing. Can't have the entire Mexican republic thinking that Americans are warmongering monolinguists.

[one sky]

I am here to learn Spanish because I would like to get my masters in teaching once I head back to the US. I majored in Spanish already but want to work on learning how to speak better. I chose Mexico because of the culture, food, and an interest in learning the Spanish of MEXICO...since so many of the people in my homestate are from Mexico. So far, I miss my friends and my home, but who knows what will happen after being here for a whole year!

[moonraven]

I also like the role I have settled into, Estanton, though I don't feel too comfortable with anything that smacks of being "settled". Your reference to "yo mama" sure has me scratching my head, though. Did you intend to say "tu mam�", as in comments along the lines of "hijo de su-------madre"?

[thelmadatter]

moonraven - "yo mama" (your mother) refers to a set of one-liners that start out with these two words. Quite American (estadounidense). Only thing it holds in common with anything in Spanish is the similar offense some people (esp. some guys) take with making any disparaging remark about one's mother.

one sky ... totally agree with you -- you really have GOT to live in a place where you must speak the language to really learn it. I think this is especially true for English speakers in the US. I lived in Tucson, only 100 km from the Mexican border but I had a really tough time USING Spanish. A BA in Spanish (I have one) means diddly - you may know a lot about the language but it sure dont mean that you can "speak" it in the sense that you can use it in any practical way (I still cant write a simple business letter but at least now I can converse for a while). I wrote a 26 page diatribe about this in one of my masters (TESOL) classes - one of my best works IMHO. In fact, I really didnt start speaking Spanish at all until I met a really wonderful Chilean guy who came to the States to learn English (original idea was to do 50/50 English/Spanish but we wound up all in Spanish to my delight). Why? Partly because he was extra patient with me and partly because I ran into the attitude in Tucson that if an Anglo wanted to speak Spanish it was like s/he was walking into someone's house uninvited. Had this problem in border towns in Mexico too. Even had someone accuse me of trying to "pollute" the culture by trying to speak Spanish. (OK, Im putting on my flame-retardant undies here!) Here, in Toluca I have no such problems.

Also, if you want to teach Spanish in the US. you can almost forget it in Tucson unless you are a native speaker of Spanish. I know this from experience. Go someplace where there are relatively few native speakers.

[moonraven]

Interesting post, Thelma. And thanks for explaining estanton's reference--it didn't occur to me that he was a Spike Lee fan, so I was puzzled.

To follow up on your comments about Arizona, I came here to Mexico after 10 years in Santa Fe, New Mexico. When I first moved to Santa Fe, and found that the job I had directing the Adult Ed. division of The College of Santa Fe was not bringing in enough money, I applied for a whole slew of state jobs for which I was qualified. I never even received a response. At one point I went over to the Human Resources folks and indicated that I suspected that I had not been classified because I did not speak Spanish and my last name was not of Spanish origin. Of course he told me that they didn't discriminate like that.

In the spring of 2000, after more than 6 years in Mexico, I went back to Santa Fe to see my attorney to try to solve a serious family problem. I expected to finance my expenses with a trust fund I had in a bank there, but discovered that the bank had been sold, then sold again, and the account had been looted of all but 150 dollars--which had been turned over to the state of NM! So another reason to see my attorney presented itself, and it appeared that until I sold some art works I had in storage there I would be stuck there. I buzzed over to the state offices to arrange to receive the pittance of what was left of my trust account, and to see what they had going for jobs, and was told by everyone there that I would have no trouble being hired immediately because I spoke Spanish better than they did. And it was true, as although I did sell some stuff and decided to go to Washington State to visit my daughter and other friends for a few weeks before returjing to Mexico, the state of New Mexico folks got my number in Spokane from the friend I had been staying with in Santa Fe, and I was offered a full range of jobs over the phone without even being interviewed. I did point out to one person that when I lived in Santa Fe the state didn't give me the time of day, and had even insisted that it had nothing to do with my not speaking Spanish or having a Spanish last name. She was not at all surprised by my story....

This just goes to show the bizarreness of some of the criteria out there--in this case New Mexico is different from Arizona, but they're both out there in the ozone somewhere. (New Mexico may be so goofy in prioritizing the language because it hasn't been all that many years since the NM Legislature conducted its sessions in both languages?)

[MixtecaMike]

What has Mexico done for me?
I came to Mexico to earn more than I was in Guatemala; and succeeded in that. I got together enough money to leave, so I'm leaving.

What have I done for Mexico?
Not a great deal, but I'm sure my employers and students feel I've given them value for money.

I haven't written any books or helped the blind to see or anything, but then neither have I raped and pillaged.

Good luck on your move, don't take yourself or your role in the greater scheme of things too seriously and you should have a great experience.

[cphaslanger]

I have three major reasons for going to Mexico:
#1- To be able to better speak the language as well as understand the culture of my immigrant and second-generation students here in Oakland, California. (mostly Mexican, some Central and South American)
#2- To understand what it feels like to go to another country to live, not just visit for vacation (again, to be able to relate to my students here).
#3- To get some more teaching experience, but in a totally different environment than a US public high school.

I guess, for me it's all about:
Experiences, experiences, experiences.
Open up my mind.
Understand other people, especially Mexicans IN Mexico.
Speak better Spanish.

Etc., etc., etc....

[MixtecaMike]

[estanton]

thanks to everyone for responding to my query.

and humoring me.

yeah, I guess i can take myself pretty seriously sometimes. and write a lot.

sometimes

like I said, I'm in a small town with not much to do. once I'm in Mexico working I'm sure you'll hear a lot less from me.

and not all because i'm working. I have my hedonistic reasons for going too



The comment about roles was basically just me trying to keep this thread from turning immediately into another brawl between Development and Indigenous Rights, to get people to think about shades of gray

also to put me into a kind of role of Pompous Wanna-Be Referee Who's not Even in Mexico Yet, I suppose. But Ben, I wasn't referring to you at all.

The "Yo mama" comment was a reference to the way black Americans get together with their friends and tell insults about each other's mothers. Don't know if it's really all that friendly, because

for the record, I'm white and rural and so are all my friends, but when we were in high school we would illustrate how pathetic rural white kids can get, and sometimes sit around and tell each other "jokes" like "your mama's so fat, her high school picture was an aerial photo." "your mama's so ugly..." "your mama's teeth are so yellow..." etc. We got most of them from TV, I think- not too many actual multicultural people in my town.

but the point it not that we were being posers (which we were) but that the idea was to try to come up with as creative insults as possible. the insults were a form of entertainment for us and people didn't take them seriously

so i was saying, if you're going to insult each other, do it creatively.

getting kinda tired of the same old insults

people have tried to stop the insults completely and it hasn't worked so i thought I'd try something different

that's all

again, thanks everyone for helping out so much on this forum

estanton