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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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 Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:57 pm Post subject: |
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If they are so concerned about fake qualifications, then, instead of worrying about whether it is 'off' or 'on' campus, I suggest they concentrate on the distinction between accredited and non-accredited institutions. Otherwise, you have the ridiculous situation that exists now. For example, Applicant A has a Bachelors in Film Studies, no teaching experience, but studied on campus at XYZ University so he is good to go. However, Applicant B, who has a Masters in Applied Linguistics, ten years of teaching experience, is published and also studied at XYZ University is ineligible for the visa because she happened to have completed her qualifications via distance education.
Don't get me wrong, I really don't care that much one way or the other, but that seems pretty stupid to me  . Anyway, the Saudis are the ones that have made the rules, and if they are not that bothered about attracting the best-qualified applicants possible, then, as far as I'm concerned, they deserve whatever they get. |
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foolsgold
Joined: 30 Jul 2009
Posts: 12
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 5:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Likely not hit-n-miss. You didn't state 1) when you applied for those visas, and 2) whether you received a business visit visa or one designated for legal employment. |
Full employment visas -(iqama).
In 2010/2011, but was offered another direct hire job in 2014, although decided to stay where I was. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| foolsgold wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Likely not hit-n-miss. You didn't state 1) when you applied for those visas, and 2) whether you received a business visit visa or one designated for legal employment. |
Full employment visas -(iqama).
In 2010/2011, but was offered another direct hire job in 2014, although decided to stay where I was. |
In 2014, your degree would have disqualified you for an employment visa during the application process anyway. By that time, the Saudi government was requiring academic qualifications be scrutinized specifically for online course credits.
| rollerblader wrote: |
| I am sure that many online/partial time and full time degrees can be found to be valid however, the Saudi government is not willing to cipher out this for themselves. Their main concern, and it is a valid one, is keeping fake degree holders out of the kingdom. |
This isn't only about EFL teachers having questionable degrees from bogus universities, especially since Saudis in the US, UK, Canada, etc., attend the exact same accredited, valid universities that many of us graduated from. (I've even had a Saudi classmate.) The SACB/SACM also vet Saudi graduates' western degrees using the same criteria; my university registrar's office had mentioned my request would be processed along with several Saudis' paperwork slated for the SACM.
Anyway, the main issue is the Saudi education ministry's perception of the online learning platform; they view it as lacking academic rigor compared to traditional, face-to-face instruction. Not surprising, the only distance learning degree programs available at a couple of Saudi universities are in computer science and Islamic studies.
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| If they are so concerned about fake qualifications, then, instead of worrying about whether it is 'off' or 'on' campus, I suggest they concentrate on the distinction between accredited and non-accredited institutions. Otherwise, you have the ridiculous situation that exists now. For example, Applicant A has a Bachelors in Film Studies, no teaching experience, but studied on campus at XYZ University so he is good to go. However, Applicant B, who has a Masters in Applied Linguistics, ten years of teaching experience, is published and also studied at XYZ University is ineligible for the visa because she happened to have completed her qualifications via distance education. |
Not so. Applicant B could still get an employment visa by using her on-campus BA and may even earn a bit more because of her MA. Applicant A, however, will appeal to the sketchiest companies due to his lack of experience. Regardless, both applicants can get approved for an employment visa for KSA via a contracting company but neither meets the requirements for direct-hire positions. |
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mrpianoman
Joined: 27 Mar 2016
Posts: 171
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:16 am Post subject: no |
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| But you don't need the transcripts so how can they know whether a degree is online or face to face, because it only states that on the transcript, doesn't it? And as already mentioned, you only need to attest ONE of your degrees for an employment visa. I can't see a problem with direct hire at all in the above scenario. All you need is a BA or equivalent degree + CELTA. MAs are a bonus. KSU were going to interview me but I have a job now so I'm not going to their recruitment drive in Birmingham now. What employers are seeking more though nowadays are people with English related degrees rather then any degree. KSU are taking the latter as far as I am aware from the agency. |
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plumpy nut
Joined: 12 Mar 2011
Posts: 1652
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:43 am Post subject: |
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| We've been through this over and over again. The employment visa requires transcripts and the SACM requires your Registrar to send a document that lists classes that were online. Any online classes and you can't use that degree for a visa. That means one online college credit that you have taken. Comments on this are all over the Saudi board. Now whether or not it matters if the online credits were before the degree was granted or after the degree was granted. I don't know. Generally applicants find out about this requirement and process after spending loads of money on the employment visa. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 4:18 am Post subject: |
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| mrpianoman wrote: |
| But you don't need the transcripts so how can they know whether a degree is online or face to face, because it only states that on the transcript, doesn't it? And as already mentioned, you only need to attest ONE of your degrees for an employment visa. I can't see a problem with direct hire at all in the above scenario. All you need is a BA or equivalent degree + CELTA. MAs are a bonus. KSU were going to interview me but I have a job now so I'm not going to their recruitment drive in Birmingham now. What employers are seeking more though nowadays are people with English related degrees rather then any degree. KSU are taking the latter as far as I am aware from the agency. |
Be aware the job candidate's degree coursework gets confirmed by his/her university registrar during the degree authentication process per the employment visa application. The SACB/SACM contacts the university registrar directly, if needed. Other official documentation is required as well.
As for direct-hire positions, they require an on-campus TEFL-related degree to qualify for the position --- preferably an MA rather than an undergrad degree. So your comment about KSU accepting any degree and conducting interviews are off-base since their staffing needs are recruited and managed by contracting companies (like Al Hussan, ICEAT, etc.) and not by the university directly. In other words, the contracting company is the employer (named on the employment contract) and not their client, KSU.
As Plumpy stated, the topic of online degrees has been discussed ad nauseam throughout this forum. (I can't believe I'm actually in agreement with Plumpy.  ) Ditto for what constitutes a direct-hire situation.
Anyway, you claim that you already have a job, so none of this pertains to you. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 7:54 am Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| If they are so concerned about fake qualifications, then, instead of worrying about whether it is 'off' or 'on' campus, I suggest they concentrate on the distinction between accredited and non-accredited institutions. Otherwise, you have the ridiculous situation that exists now. For example, Applicant A has a Bachelors in Film Studies, no teaching experience, but studied on campus at XYZ University so he is good to go. However, Applicant B, who has a Masters in Applied Linguistics, ten years of teaching experience, is published and also studied at XYZ University is ineligible for the visa because she happened to have completed her qualifications via distance education. |
Not so. Applicant B could still get an employment visa by using her on-campus BA and may even earn a bit more because of her MA. Applicant A, however, will appeal to the sketchiest companies due to his lack of experience. Regardless, both applicants can get approved for an employment visa for KSA via a contracting company but neither meets the requirements for direct-hire positions. |
Yes so, because Applicant B "happened to have completed her qualifications via distance education."  In other words, she did both her undergraduate and postgraduate studies off campus. This is what I did/am doing and I'm sure many others have as well. Not everyone can afford to spend a year or more in a Western country not working, or working part-time.
Anyway, under those circumstances, despite being a highly qualified applicant, she is ineligible to work in Saudi, and, for that matter, so am I. In regards to Applicant A only being able to work for "the sketchiest companies", yeah, and fair enough. That's a market-based reality and his qualifications are below average. However, my point is that he is still eligible for the visa, whereas she isn't. Like I said, I personally don't really care, but it just seems "pretty stupid to me" and the Saudis deserve whatever they get because of it. In regards to this topic having been done to death, that doesn't surprise me, but the above is just my two cents on it anyway. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:08 am Post subject: |
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| KSA - it is their country and they make the rules. Why should they give a monkey's ****** what a bunch of infidel honkies think ? |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:57 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
She did both her undergraduate and postgraduate studies off campus. This is what I did and I'm sure many others have as well. Not everyone can afford to spend years not working, or working part-time.
Anyway, under those circumstances, despite being a highly qualified applicant, she is ineligible to work in Saudi, and, for that matter, so am I.
...
Like I said, I personally don't really care but it just seems "pretty stupid to me" and the Saudis deserve what they get. |
Nah, you do care; it's obviously a sore spot for you. However, it's odd that you're hating on just the Saudis when Qatar, Kuwait, and Bahrain also reject degrees that included online coursework. This visa requirement has been known for some 3 or so years. Anyway, TEFL opportunities in the UAE will be greatly reduced by 2018, so that leaves Oman. It is what it is. |
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In the heat of the moment
Joined: 22 May 2015
Posts: 393
Location: Italy
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| scot47 wrote: |
| KSA - it is their country and they make the rules. Why should they give a monkey's ****** what a bunch of infidel honkies think ? |
We have drones and beer? |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
Nah, you do care; it's obviously a sore spot for you. However, it's odd that you're hating on just the Saudis when Qatar, Kuwait, and Bahrain also reject degrees that included online coursework. This visa requirement has been known for some 3 or so years. Anyway, TEFL opportunities in the UAE will be greatly reduced by 2018, so that leaves Oman. It is what it is. |
Before you accuse someone of something, it's usually best to have your facts in order. Certainly, I'd appreciate it if you didn't question my sincerity or honesty and I'd suggest you take the trouble to read my earlier comments on the "Gulf area ESL" thread (a few threads below this one). FYI, on that thread, I stated clearly that I am leaving the Gulf this year, that I have no interest in returning (unless I got a job offering "very good money"), that it's been good for a while, but living in the GCC is not for me, and that I prefer Asia. Furthermore, on the "Qualifications" thread, which is also on this board and is a thread which you contributed to, I said once again that I wanted to be in Asia, that I wouldn't consider a Gulf international school position unless I couldn't get pretty much anywhere else and that I was pursuing post-graduate study so I wouldn't have to teach in the Gulf to make a decent living.
So, please explain, why are these GCC policies a "sore spot" for me, when I don't even want to live in the GCC? Can you also please supply the "hating" comments I've made on the "Saudis" on this thread? As a country, I certainly don't particularly care for the KSA, but I don't see any "hating" here and I think I've given pretty good reasons as to why I think the policy under discussion is stupid. I also happen to agree with scot47 that this is their country and as a logical extension to this, if they create problems for themselves, then they are the ones who should/will have to deal with them. If you want to set me straight as to why I'm incorrect (as you unsuccessfully tried to do earlier) then be my guest.
In regards to me not posting on the Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain boards, unlike certain other members, I invariably only choose to post on boards in which I know a fair bit about the country in question. I very rarely visit those other GCC boards and I've only comparatively recently started posting on this one, because, as I mentioned on the Oman forum the other day, "a lot seems to be happening" here. Anyway, as someone who has devoted several years of their life to studying via distance education, believe it or not, I just happen to find discussions on distance educational issues interesting. Who would have guessed? 
Last edited by 1st Sgt Welsh on Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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veiledsentiments
Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to me not posting on the Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain boards, unlike certain other members, I invariably only choose to post on boards in which I know a fair bit about the country in question. |
You two spend way too much time misreading each other's posts and intentions. LOL Nothing was said about where you may or may not post. She was merely pointing out that their policy on on-line degrees are unfortunately the same.
VS |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:27 pm Post subject: |
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| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to me not posting on the Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain boards, unlike certain other members, I invariably only choose to post on boards in which I know a fair bit about the country in question. |
You two spend way too much time misreading each other's posts and intentions. LOL Nothing was said about where you may or may not post. She was merely pointing out that their policy on on-line degrees are unfortunately the same.
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Hi VS. She basically asked why I didn't spread my "hating on" to the other boards and I answered her. I don't accept the characterization for a start and, secondly, I very rarely visit those other boards. If similar discussions have come up there then, quite simply, I've never read them.
Anyway, the main thing was that she basically called me a liar without a shred of evidence. Either that, or she is claiming to know me better than I know myself, which I find somewhat dubious. Anyway, that's not cool, IMHO. |
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:10 am Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| veiledsentiments wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| In regards to me not posting on the Kuwait, Qatar and Bahrain boards, unlike certain other members, I invariably only choose to post on boards in which I know a fair bit about the country in question. |
Nothing was said about where you may or may not post. She was merely pointing out that their policy on on-line degrees are the unfortunately the same. |
Hi VS. She basically asked why I didn't spread my "hating on" to the other boards and I answered her. I don't accept the characterization for a start and, secondly, I very rarely visit those other boards. If similar discussions have come up there then, quite simply, I've never read them.
Anyway, the main thing was that she basically called me a liar without a shred of evidence. Either that, or she is claiming to know me better than I know myself, which I find somewhat dubious. Anyway, that's not cool, IMHO. |
"Hating/hatin' on" is urban slang for criticizing or complaining about someone or something. It has absolutely nothing to do with spreading hate on other forum boards. I was simply pointing out that Saudi Arabia shouldn't be the only target of your criticism. VS got it.
As for calling you a liar, I have no clue what you're basing that on. If you're referring to the scenario you initially posted (i.e., "Applicant B, who has a Masters in Applied Linguistics, ten years of teaching experience, is published and also studied at XYZ University is ineligible for the visa because she happened to have completed her qualifications via distance education"), I read and interpreted it as written. It wasn't clear that you meant your (or her) BA as well. But if you're referring to my "sore spot" comment, I suspect your pride is somewhat hurt based on your statement (twice) that the Saudis "get what they deserve." Frankly, whose ego wouldn't be bruised if they worked hard on their degree only to find out it wouldn't be accepted for whatever reason. But seriously, no one is calling you a liar.
Anyway, Scot47 sums it up quite well.  |
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izmigari
Joined: 04 Feb 2016
Posts: 197
Location: Rubbing shoulders with the 8-Ball in the top left pocket
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| Posted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:38 am Post subject: |
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You win!  How's that?  |
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