Job Discussion Forums

[chog]

Hola,


I've just left my job as I caught my latest employer trying to change my contract. I. E I signed a four page document which was returned after a month (they said two hours!) as a three page document with numerous amendments. I've been in China for four years so I knew enough to tackle the problem sideways and at least give them a chance to save face. This didn't work and so we agreed to part company.

My boss is claiming they can only give me a twenty day tourist visa and then i've got to be out of China. This is less than acceptable even though a few weeks on a beach in Thailand might be a nice break.

I have two very simple questions and if anyone can provide anything I would be extremely grateful. I have always had good relations with my other employers so my knowledge of visa regulations is pretty scant.

1 Would I be right in saying that you cannot under any circumstances get a LEGAL job in China with a tourist visa?

2 If anyone has been to court over anything like this, what kind of evidence do you think I need to stand a realistic chance of not smearing egg all over my face?


Thanks
Chog

[arioch36]

You can not work legally on a tourist visa.

I believe to get a judgment you have to show damages. Did they not pay you? Not give reimbursment as agreed for airfare?

As always, I suggest contacting the provincial education bureau/ foreign experts bureau. Good luck

chris in Henan

[chog]

Thanks for the quick reply !

I'm going to the bureau tomorrow and I'll take it from there.


Best
Chog

[MW]

It is definately illegal to work in China on a tourist visa but it is done all of the time. You will be at the mercy of your employer though.

Upon termination of your prior employment you have a very limited time to exit China.

As you have probably already found out, the Bureau for Foreign Experts is not much help.

Immigration and Customs is in charge of visas. They can issue you an "L" tourist visa for 30 to 60 days if they want.

However, once terminated and your Expert Certificate forfeited, you will most probably need to leave China as you will need a favorable release letter from your prior employer to get a new certificate either in the same province or a new one.

Most people go to Hong Kong and then enter on a new "F" or "Z" visa without any mention of the prior employment in China.

It is not good to terminate or be terminated before the contract ends. Further employment is very difficult.

[chog]

Thanks for all the help so far.


Now the plot thickens.

I've had a job offer through an old friend in HeilongJiang. He is swearing blind that I can go up there with my newly issued L visa and get legal employment. This smells more than a little fishy as I am 100 per cent sure that as indicated above I've got to leave China and get a new visa in order to work legally?

Am i right or wrong?

[MW]

Ask the new employer for an invitation letter upon which you may obtain an "F" visa to enter China. This can be faxed to you but not emailed.

If they are unable or unwilling to do this, it is a scam. Be careful.

If they send you the "F" visa letter of invitation, go to the local Chinese immigration office and have your new "F" visa entered into your passport. It will probably be for 30 to 45 days in duration. Then go to the new job and get the "Z" visa when you arrive.

If you go to work on the "L" visa your troubles will just begin. You will regret that decision.

[Dragon]

Dear Comrade,
You look out for all those seeking help. Your visa knowledge is incredible along with ATM's, Law, ESL and ofcourse the Facilitation Method. Z, F, L who can keep track. But since you have arrived on the scene we can all rest easy. Thank you Comrade MW. I look forward to you being here for another 25 years in China 1978- to 2023!
Your friend DRAGON

[Minhang Oz]

Dear Drag On
You're obviously in quarantine in a teacher apartment , or possibly on social security somewhere far from China. Either way, you're bored out of your tiny mind. Find something productive to do-maybe a porn site would suit your onanistic style.

[noyb]

Chog,

Did the employer you parted company with actually get you the "Z" visa prior to your deciding to leave? If he did (and you have it stamped in your passport), don't worry. You have no problems.

It is totally possible that the other school you mentioned can get you a work (Z) visa. The vast majority of teachers entering China and ultimately obtaining work visas have initially entered China on tourist (L) visas and then had them changed over to work visas.

[chog]

Situation appears to be under control!


Thanks for all your help everybody. Much appreciated!

I will allegedly be picking up my new visa tomorrow so everything should be okay. What have I learnt from all this?

Get your visa before you part company with your employer. If you are still waiting when you leave/are fired then you have much less room for manouvre, especially with HK not being the most attractive destination right now.

Anyway, once again thanks to you all.


Best
Chog

[Roger]

Your situation is far from transparent.
As noyb pointed out, you can only work legally on a work visa. That is a visa that's prefixed with a capital-'Z'. You can only obtain from the PSB upon producing a medical cert stating that you are physically and mentally fit, i.e. are not carrier of HIV.
If you have a tourist visa or a business visa, you are under no circumstance allowed to work although this is happening all the time. The authorities tolerate some contravention, but just as well they might decide to confront you, in which case you would be in hot water.
A F visa or a l visa puts you under the obligation of staying at tourist facilities, i.e. hotels, not in rented flats.

You can't change your job on a Z visa legally unless you obtain from your employer a release letter, which you must present to the PSB to get a chop (when you leave that place) and the PSB in the new place, which then decides whether to grant you the right to work there.
In the new place you must undergo yet another medical examination. The old cert will not be taken into account.

I don't know if holders of a business visa have any advantage of holders of a tourist visa when applying for an upgrade to a work visa; in any case, the new employer must apply for you, and the PSB have the power to grant you this privilege, or to withhold it from you.

On the other hand I know that some training centres either don't bother applying, or they don't know the ropes. SOme new schools don't know the regulations either, some break them consciously. For instance kindergartens are not supposed to hire expats (in some localities, anyway); yet they do hire expats and even run adverts with a photo of their expat teacher(s).
In my area, I know that most expats are on illegal terms. One teacher in a kindergarten, making 8000 RMB a month even has to pay two thirds of the fee of his F visa, which the kindergarten applied for on his behalf.
While they have a job and housing, they are somewhat vulnerable as police on the beat can ask to see their residence permit (which they can't obtain legally).
Another issue is the conversion of RMB into foreign currency. WIthout a work visa you can't do that at any bank.

However, you are going to work in a different place in China; if you have an F visa, the best approach is for your school to ignore the fact that you worked in some other school. Let them treat you as a newcomer that has been touring China for some months.
THen there will be no question about a release letter.

[hubei_canuk]

Hello Chog,
In actual fact you told so very little of your situation, it's hard to understand.
Ie. What province? Is the job over? Do they owe you money? What was your visa before?
========================
Questions:
........................
1 Would I be right in saying that you cannot under any circumstances get a LEGAL job in China with a tourist visa?

2 If anyone has been to court over anything like this, what kind of evidence do you think I need to stand a realistic chance of not smearing egg all over my face?
...
1. No Actually is is "legal" in a way to work temporarily on a L of F visa. This is because of the way in which different provinces allow or issue Z-visas'. If you are in an "uptight" place then as MW's post suggests this is the way you must do it i.e. out-of-country.
Hunan province is this way, although miraculously i saw proof they changed a tourist to z visa for someone. Co-incidentaly she worked for a school that was the richest in Hunan and taught the children of all the party bosses. (Real strange that - right?
Okay, now other provinces will change the visa in-province. How does that happen?. First, the FA of the local city (the real FA not the school FA) will take your information and go get a work permit for you from the provincial capital. At that point you will have your foreign experts card (or perhaps the school or the fa will have it). At that point you will be technically working on a F or L visa with full awareness of the FA and the PSB (theye will have been informed by the FA as you will have been registered). So you have a temporary situation of legally working on a L or F visa. Legal defined as temporary unwritten permission from the authorities. But that doesn't last long as they expect the school to finish the paperwork within a month (or 2?) and process the Z-visa and Residency at th PSB and cough up a thousand or 2 RMB.
..
However, it some extremely short term cases where they knew the teacher couldn't stay, they just simply forgot about this. But that's rare and i wouldn't count on it.
..
What is is, is what serves the community or what serves CHINA is correct. In HK i got a Z visa once, Shouldn't have been allowed, it was past the due date and also it said i should apply in Canada. The Chinese consulate boss came over when i complained, realized a CHINESE commuity needed a teacher and told the clerk to process it. They close ranks for themselves. Why not?
.....
Bottom line, the Heilongjiang situation is probably on the level. Just find out if the situation is as i describe. If the FA processes teachers " in-house, in-province rather than forcing them to leave the country and come back then you have no problem. But your friend should tell whether or not got his resendency and z-visa processed "in-province".
..
2. "Go to Court"? I can't imagine what you could mean by this. I've never heard of any teacher "going to court in" China. Maybe it happened in the Big Cities? Is so i would like to hear any poster tell the story. I know of a teacher and school that got busted for illegal working in Changsha. The court the cops went to was a private banquet hall where for some unknown reason ("little envelopes" maybe?) it was all smoothed over, Unfortunately the teacher still had to leave.
Do you mean Uncle Jim's Kangaroo Court where you as complaintant cannot speak chinese, have no visa, have no means of support, have no job and the case is remanded 4 months?
Rosttsa Ruck!
===========================

"I've had a job offer through an old friend in HeilongJiang. He is swearing blind that I can go up there with my newly issued L visa and get legal employment. This smells more than a little fishy as I am 100 per cent sure that as indicated above I've got to leave China and get a new visa in order to work legally?
Am i right or wrong?"
... Answer, your friend is probably right, Just ask if he got his Z-visa and Residency card in HLJ the same way. If so and he is telling the truth, then that is the way they do things in HLJ.

[chog]

I am now the proud owner of both a residency card and a legal work visa. So I guess it is possible to get legal docs from a tourist visa. However, I should point out that I'm working for a new school and I know that the boss has some serious clout with the local establishemnt. I think this, more than anything has helped me get my docs. I would have thought that transferring from Guangxi to Heilongjiang could be a tricky proposition if you don't have someone to hold open the back door for you.

So thanks for all your input and good luck to anyone else in my position.

the Chogster

[hubei_canuk]

Why not use the Front Door?
--------------------------------
Chog,
Don't give your boss credit for what isn't his. The Foreign Affairs has the clout. You just have to go there by their front door. If you find out where they are and drop in on them you can make friends with them.
That boss is just doing what he has to. It sounds like your old school just didn't want you to stay so they told you some fairy story.
If you had gone to HeiLongJiang you would NOT have been transferring jobs unless your previous visa was a Z visa. But you didn't state your situuation clearly so its hard to understand what your problem was. Then it depends if your old residency has expired and you are up for renewal or if you are cutting schools in mid-season.
..
It sounds like your previous visa was tourist, therefore it would have been possible to go to HLJ and start a legal job and get legal papers. Now it is impossible without permission from your current school.
...
How is it that you are changing schools after Mayday? Are you in a private school?