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A new low for Chinese education or status quo?

 
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kungfuman



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:38 pm    Post subject: A new low for Chinese education or status quo? Reply with quote

I work in an "International" school that isn't really an international school. It's mostly Chinese students but has a few dozen Taiwanese, Koreans, and other nationalities for the student body.

End of the year is here and I was talking to a grade 2 teacher about my grades.

She told me she was jealous of me. Why, cause in a few days I have 10 weeks paid holiday till school starts again?

No, she said she's jealous of my grading ability. WHY I asked her? She said cause I failed students and gave some a barely passing score.

And why don't you I asked her.

She said our school policy is that Chinese teachers can only give out A or B grades. Nothing lower...

A new low or status quo...? The grades are bought and paid for - once again...
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rioux



Joined: 26 Apr 2012
Posts: 880

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Standard Operating Procedure
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jimpellow



Joined: 12 Oct 2007
Posts: 913

PostPosted: Wed Jun 15, 2016 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice post. But you gave the failing grade, but will it end up as an A or B. Been there....
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kungfuman



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jimpellow wrote:
Nice post. But you gave the failing grade, but will it end up as an A or B. Been there....


I did my duty.

Actually I checked with one of the grade 6 students - I failed 14 out of 24 in his class. He told me the dullards who failed did actually received the F grades I gave them.

Now get this - this particular student came to the office to complain that I ONLY gave him an A - not an A plus like I gave a girl. He walked away losing the argument for a plus but with a couple of lollipops.

Taiwan kids - gotta love them...
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thechangling



Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 4:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

kungfuman wrote:
jimpellow wrote:
Nice post. But you gave the failing grade, but will it end up as an A or B. Been there....


I did my duty.

Actually I checked with one of the grade 6 students - I failed 14 out of 24 in his class. He told me the dullards who failed did actually received the F grades I gave them.

Now get this - this particular student came to the office to complain that I ONLY gave him an A - not an A plus like I gave a girl. He walked away losing the argument for a plus but with a couple of lollipops.

Taiwan kids - gotta love them...

What's the point of playing moral high ground police in a country where all students (unless they're rich and/or well connected) will have a low paid hard life regardless of the grade you give them. It really is meaningless to use your power in that way because the system here is so corrupt and there is no way out and no hope for those without aforementioned money and connections.
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adventious



Joined: 23 Nov 2015
Posts: 237
Location: In the wide

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 5:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thechangling wrote:
What's the point of playing moral high ground police in a country where all students (unless they're rich and/or well connected) will have a low paid hard life regardless of the grade you give them.
Allow me to admit a few biases...

I enjoy kungfuman's posts and haven't read this one in the same way. Or rather, it's my opinion your conclusion that kungfuman is "playing moral high ground" is overly critical.

YET!

I think you frame an important issue-- By what terms/actions does a teacher impose a standard, and why?
But I don't have an answer, just a knowledge that it repeatedly comes up in conversations among expat teachers with mostly harmless intentions, ranging from presenting a conscientious effort to bragging about setting some random and unfortunate population of students "straight".

Personally, I don't impose standards-- they inform my choices, but my normative assessments are, in fact, rankings, and I feel that's what I'm paid for: Documenting a range of proficiency among a population.

In my case, I'm at a third-tier university and I don't trouble myself (or anyone else) by failing students-- some portion of my students will only squeak by, and the top grades can only go to a few. Differences of only a few percentiles are a matter I strive to document.

Were I at a 2nd tier, I'd be challenged to impose the standard by which a student is allowed to continue or transferred to a less competitive institution. Yet I fully well know this is not common in China. The stakes of the GaoKao are formidable.

I have an associate who took a position off the beaten path at an "international" program attached to a prestigious #1 middle school. It's not been in existence quite three years and they're well compensated and often surprised by how laxly it's run-- they don't submit grades at all, and it undermines their efforts when the seniors get word of this and refuse any accountability. Yet, every member of its small, graduating class has been accepted abroad.

@kungfuman-- one estimate of the revenues involved in China's young population going abroad for degrees is forty-five billion. That's a B, like a Carl Sagan B...a ten to the power of nine. So? I new low? In some ways, Yes. In some ways, No.

But, despite enjoying your posts, I have to say to kungfuman what I've always said to my associate:
    Take the money, but complain about it? Whatever.
There's a world of deserving people who'd benefit from the competitive advantage of knowing English. Your choice is simply that.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 6:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone thinks this is only a problem in Chinese schools then you're living in a world that is so disconnected from reality that you should probably not be teaching children since you don't know what you're talking about and should probably go home and receive an education in the field you're currently working in.

https://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2007/06/09/failure_is_not_an_option.html

She has skipped 30 classes in a row and hasn't handed in an assignment all term, but the principal wants her teacher to cut this Grade 12 student some slack.

"He told me, 'Look, the student says she's finally willing to hand in all her work, so I want you to mark it and don't take off points for being late,'" sighs the English teacher at a west Toronto high school.

"Whatever happened to deadlines? We bend over so far for kids these days, it's a joke."

With the school year almost done, the pressure for marks is on – and not just for students, but also teachers.

A growing chorus of educators say Queen's Park's new drive to keep kids in school to 18 is pushing them to coddle students with inflated marks, too many second, third and fourth chances and too few flunking grades, adding to an already lofty sense of entitlement.

In a new survey of nearly 1,000 high school teachers in Durham Region, four out of 10 say they feel principals push them to drop standards so more students will pass. One in four feels pressured not to give an F.

Yet some say it's time to bring back the F-word – Fail – to a school system that has shunned it for a generation.

"Everyone wants what's best for the student, but teachers are asking, `Have we gone too far?'" says math teacher Ken Coran, president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation.
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7969



Joined: 26 Mar 2003
Posts: 5782
Location: Coastal Guangdong

PostPosted: Thu Jun 16, 2016 7:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Kong wrote:
If anyone thinks this is only a problem in Chinese schools then you're living in a world that is so disconnected from reality that you should probably not be teaching children since you don't know what you're talking about and should probably go home and receive an education in the field you're currently working in.

https://www.thestar.com/life/parent/2007/06/09/failure_is_not_an_option.html

She has skipped 30 classes in a row and hasn't handed in an assignment all term, but the principal wants her teacher to cut this Grade 12 student some slack.

Yet some say it's time to bring back the F-word – Fail – to a school system that has shunned it for a generation.

"Everyone wants what's best for the student, but teachers are asking, `Have we gone too far?'" says math teacher Ken Coran, president of the Ontario Secondary School Teachers' Federation.

It's sad how this has played out. Another story, same issue, different city, lots of public support for the teacher but it got him nowhere:

Edmonton teacher fired for breaking 'no zero policy' won't get job back

Quote:
A veteran Edmonton teacher who was fired for giving zeros to students who didn't hand in their homework or take tests will get to keep money he was previously awarded but he won't get his job back.

That one school board has rescinded it's ridiculous "no fail" policy but it's still in place in other school boards around the country. Suddenly I don't feel so bad at not being able to fail some of the students here. At least they always show up for exams and hand in something when given an assignment.
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kungfuman



Joined: 31 May 2012
Posts: 1749
Location: In My Own Private Idaho

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Abuse of power? I give students the mark they deserve. A hardworking student - even one who fails exams- will pass my class- unlike those pantie waste spoiled rich kids who do nothing.

If someone fails my class it's because they deserve it.

Unlike the Chinese teachers who hand out an A or B mark just because they have no independent thought capabilities and just follow the hive mind directions.
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thechangling



Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 276

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 4:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

adventious wrote:
thechangling wrote:
What's the point of playing moral high ground police in a country where all students (unless they're rich and/or well connected) will have a low paid hard life regardless of the grade you give them.
Allow me to admit a few biases...

I enjoy kungfuman's posts and haven't read this one in the same way. Or rather, it's my opinion your conclusion that kungfuman is "playing moral high ground" is overly critical.

YET!

I think you frame an important issue-- By what terms/actions does a teacher impose a standard, and why?
But I don't have an answer, just a knowledge that it repeatedly comes up in conversations among expat teachers with mostly harmless intentions, ranging from presenting a conscientious effort to bragging about setting some random and unfortunate population of students "straight".

Personally, I don't impose standards-- they inform my choices, but my normative assessments are, in fact, rankings, and I feel that's what I'm paid for: Documenting a range of proficiency among a population.

In my case, I'm at a third-tier university and I don't trouble myself (or anyone else) by failing students-- some portion of my students will only squeak by, and the top grades can only go to a few. Differences of only a few percentiles are a matter I strive to document.

Were I at a 2nd tier, I'd be challenged to impose the standard by which a student is allowed to continue or transferred to a less competitive institution. Yet I fully well know this is not common in China. The stakes of the GaoKao are formidable.

I have an associate who took a position off the beaten path at an "international" program attached to a prestigious #1 middle school. It's not been in existence quite three years and they're well compensated and often surprised by how laxly it's run-- they don't submit grades at all, and it undermines their efforts when the seniors get word of this and refuse any accountability. Yet, every member of its small, graduating class has been accepted abroad.

@kungfuman-- one estimate of the revenues involved in China's young population going abroad for degrees is forty-five billion. That's a B, like a Carl Sagan B...a ten to the power of nine. So? I new low? In some ways, Yes. In some ways, No.

But, despite enjoying your posts, I have to say to kungfuman what I've always said to my associate:
    Take the money, but complain about it? Whatever.
There's a world of deserving people who'd benefit from the competitive advantage of knowing English. Your choice is simply that.

I think there are several very good regular posters on this site that are capable of interesting analysis and debate, and like to play the ball rather than the man which is something that I enjoy very much.
However in the end we all have to do what makes the most sense to us as individuals according to what we know, have experienced (hindsight) and what we can foresee. So I have to respect any man (or woman) that does this however much I might disagree with them.
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The_Kong



Joined: 15 Apr 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

kungfuman wrote:
Abuse of power? I give students the mark they deserve. A hardworking student - even one who fails exams- will pass my class- unlike those pantie waste spoiled rich kids who do nothing.

If someone fails my class it's because they deserve it.

Unlike the Chinese teachers who hand out an A or B mark just because they have no independent thought capabilities and just follow the hive mind directions.


So the teachers in Edmonton like the article posted above, or the teachers in Toronto from the article I posted do so because...they are Chinese?

Do you know how ridiculous what you just wrote is?
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rogerwilco



Joined: 10 Jun 2010
Posts: 1549

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am aware of schools changing the scores that I give.
The scores have been changed both up and down. One student that I gave a final score of 88 later told me that he had received a score of 68.
Some students that receive a score of 0 because they never attend class have later received a score of 80 or 90.

I do not like giving a score of less then 60 because that just creates an opportunity for someone else to ask for a bribe from a student that I failed.

FT's that brag about failing students may not be aware that they are probably just enriching the Chinese admin.

Bribes seem to be more common in the high schools because of the Gao Kao.
But, I am aware of Chinese teachers in my college being offered bribes for higher scores.
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