Job Discussion Forums

[sukatrash]

Heya,

I'm qualified (BA, and CELTA), but have no experience. As I live in New Zealand the most obvious choice for me would be to go and teach in Asia (S.Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc...) However, I'm quite keen on giving Europe a go. The problem is that I'm having an impossible time trying to find a school that is ok with a phone-interview (I'm not going to fly over there just for an interview!). Are phone-interviews only common in Asian schools? Surely there must be a few European schools for whom this is standard procedure - Help guys!!?

Mike

[Glenski]

Doesn't matter where you want to work. Think of it like this.

1. Going to that country shows some initiative and commitment to the job. Some employers like that, rather than having you phone in the interview, get a work visa, then never show up for work but take your visa elsewhere.

2. Being in the country makes it easier to find work. The opportunities are more available.

3. Just how reliable is a phone interview? It's a two-way street. They can't see you in your underwear answering questions, and you can't see their shabby office or look at the apartments or talk to the staff, etc. If you wouldn't trust a phone interview in your own country (and I know few people who would), why would you trust one thousands of miles away in a foreign land?

[spiral78]

Glenski's right. There's relatively a lot of competition for jobs in Europe and, though I have contact with a fair number of schools in both central/western Europe, I don't know of any that hire based on just a phone interview. In the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, and other central euro countries, this was more common a few years ago. But too many schools were "burned" by applicants who didn't actually show, and there are now enough applicants standing in the school offices, nicely dressed, credentials in hand, so that the better language schools no longer need to take the risk.
Why not save up and take a little time to go in person? It's your professional career step, after all.

[dandan]

Agreed, it's the same here in Hong Kong, I wouldn't want to work for the kind of dodgy place that recruits teachers over the phone or internet. Anywhere half decent will want to meet you in person.

[phis]

[denise]

Phis--

I agree. I got my current job through a phone interview, and the school is quite reputable and professional.

So why the difference between Asia and Europe? Is it strictly because of geography (England being close to mainland Europe means more teachers coming in person?)? I applied to several schools in a few different Asian countries/cities (Japan, Taiwan, China, Vietnam, Hong Kong), and the interviews were all either over the phone or, in some odd cases, via email--those ones kinda worried me...

d

[phis]

I think that's it Denise. It is now so cheap to travel between the different European countries that most jobs go to people who are actually on the spot, and it's not a problem for people to take a short holiday and just go looking for the jobs.

I have a really serious question though. How do you convince people you are a reputable school and not out to con them? I am, of course, referring to those school in Asia which have to depend on telephone and internet recruiting. We can't do it here on Dave's, because if you want to bad-mouth a school, that is okay, but if you want to give positive comments about a school, that will be taken as advertising and will be deleted from the board. This is true even if it is a teacher who wants to comment, because people will just believe that they have been made to do it by the management of the school.

I am really at my wits end. If you tell them that what is contained in the contract is what you get, they turn it down because they want to believe the 'exaggerated and sometimes fraudulent' offers of other less reputable schools. You can't then tell them that the other 'school/s' are famous for dumping their teachers before the end of contract so that they don't have to pay out end year bonuses and will find other ways of withholding salary, airfares, etc., because a) that would be unprofessional b) they will think you are making it up c) because you have 'safety clauses' in your own contract, they will think you are going to do the same.

Also, how can you convince people that the salary, although it no-way compares to a Western salary is a really good deal. Most people forget to look at the whole package. When this includes free housing and utilities bills, food allowance and free maid service, the actually salary goes way up. Combined with the really low cost of living in most Asian countries, there are very few people who could enjoy such a high standard of living in any Western country. And yes, you are not going to go home rich, but you will have had a year or more of living well, and travelling cheaply to places you would have to pay a king's ransom to book through a Western travel agent.

And, why oh why, can't people understand that salaries between each Asian country and even different regions in the same country, are based on the cost of living in each place. You will be offered three or four times more money in cities such as Jakarta and Surabaya (I'm only talking about Indonesia now), but you will have to pay out three or four times more to live decently. And very often, (but not always), in these places, you have to find and pay for your own accommodation.

And my final rant is about handing out email addresses of teachers already working for the school. If we say no (because this is an invasion of privacy and also because it would involve a great deal of time for the teachers to respond to every request for information), we are accused of having something to hide. If we say yes, we are accused of only giving the email addresses of teachers who will say good things about us (management puppets!). Or even worse, inventing teachers and writing the emails ourselves.

Okay, that is the end of my rant! Sorry Denise, that this got tagged onto the answer to your nice post, but I just had to let off steam!

[comenius]

Posting from a reply to Phis in the Indonesia forum...

An interesting question. In a microeconomics class I'm taking right now, there is a strategy scenario we covered called the "Lemon's Curse," in which when all products are considered to be of poor quality, truly high quality products won't be successful (in recruiting qualified teachers, charging higher fees for their classes, etc.) without some means of "signalling" that they are indeed high quality. For established, well known products (or schools), the brand name alone can serve this purpose.

In the case of new or unknown products--such as your language school--warranties of some fashion are often used to signal quality. The question of course is what type of "warranty" can be used to signal to the quality teachers that you represent a high quality school. The trick is that if a low quality school can copy your signal, you end up back at square one and all schools become lumped into the same category again--the lemon's curse (lemon as in a bad car--think of what car manufacturers and used car dealers do to gain the confidence of their potential customers that the car they're buying isn't a hunk of junk).

As a result, your signal must be something that a "low quality" school can't profitably "afford" to offer. And of course, if you are indeed a low quality school (not saying you are!), the last thing you want to do is credibly signal you're a high quality school, as the "cost" would outweigh its "profit" for you.

So... What's your warranty, so to speak? The thing you can do that other, lower quality schools can't? Or is it best just to compete in the low quality arena, and take the low quality benefits--which still should be greater than zero--after all, there are lots and lots of less than stellar quality language schools in the world. In fact, in many industries and markets, high quality has proven to be unprofitable, and low quality rules the roost.

[phis]

Sorry Comenius

You have made it look like the things you are actually saying yourself look like 'a quote from me' Could you rectify this problem?

I have copied your comments so that I can think about them more carefully. I have to admit that at the moment, after 20 years in the business community (not just in EFL/ESL), I can't make any sense of your comments. You just seem to be repeating 'parrot fashion' what your instructors have said to you. And what they are saying to you is ......

I don't know. Are you 20/30 something and taking 'cult courses' that will change your life!

I am not trying to put you down. And I will honestly answer your message when I have had time to think about your comments.

However, I just want to make one observation. We are now talking about small well established schools with great reputations, but who do not have the advantage of a brand name or any other means of establishing a 'warranty' on the international market.

[gugelhupf]

The particular economic theory being considered here is just one of many alternatives, and comes straight from evolutionary biology. In biology it is known as the "handicap" theory, largely invented by a guy called Zahavi. He proposed that if it costs a lot in terms or resources or risk to produce a signal then that signal must be "honest" as it is too costly to fake. It is, by definition, a theory - and no more than that.

Like most bits of evolutionary game theory that are transcribed into the human business situation, it is a very neat and convenient model for describing the world that never quite works in practice - as it assumes that all players in the market compete head-on, and that they all have the same goal state (ie making lots of money). Small, good quality gems of language schools tucked away in exotic corners of the world have neither the means nor the motivation to take on the likes of EF and go for world domination - and long may that continue!

[comenius]

No worries, Phis. I changed the formatting.

As for your other comments, if pursuing a business degree qualifies as a "cult course" then yes, I guess you have me pegged. For what it's worth, I also have my MA in TESOL and taught for 6 years before going over to the dark side. I'm 36.

And as for understanding what I was getting at, I think from your comments that you've nailed the essence of what I was trying to communicate. Think of a little mom and pop grocery store going up against WalMart. How does a small, quality operation compete against a huge entity like that? Not a 100% like/like comparison, I know, but the situation is fairly common. And the responses can be all over the board, too.

Gugelhupf, I'm not familiar with evolutionary biology, but you're dead on that theories are just that, theories. Heck, in my MA/TESOL program, we spent tons of time studying and practicing different theories of language acquisition. While they don't give you all the answers, they can be useful frameworks to think about "problems," and to think about how you might respond to them. They don't remove the need for a person to sit down and think about things, though, or take away the value of judgement and experience!

[phis]

Sorry Comenius

Didn't mean to insult you. I am just a bit ****** at the impossibility of getting people to understand that good schools do exist, and that not everyone is lying in their ads or in their contracts etc.

I have calmed down somewhat now and offer my abject apologies for any offence I might have given.

[comenius]

Phis, no apologies needed, and no offense taken.