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BigZen
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Japan
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:39 am Post subject: Communication challenges with your family members |
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Hello Everyone,
I know this post might be more appropriate in the Japan section, since that is where I live;however, I am hoping to feedback and opinion from people in other places as well. Also, I have had some unpleasant experiences posting on the Japanese section, where people can be very harsh when it comes to why I am still not fluent in the host country language after living here for so long.
My question is for those who are long term residents in a country, married, and have children. Do you speak the host country’s language, that is fairly well so that you can understand TV shows, read the newspaper, watch movies. I am not sure if I have the definition correct, but “functionally literate.”
My situation is that I am married to a Japanese woman, and we have two young children who speak no English. They are 7 and 10 years old, and speak solely Japanese with my wife, their grandfather and uncle who live next door, go to a Japanese school...so roughly 99% of the language input they receive is Japanese. I feel very left out in daily life with them, since when we are together as a family, or when my in-laws come over, everything is in Japanese (which is to be expected), but most of which goes over my head. In addition, I find it difficult to sit down with my kids to watch their favourite TV shows or movies, since I cannot understand. I would describe my proficiency level as upper-beginner, though I have been living here in Japan on-and-off since 1991, and studied a lot on my own as well as in community classes. If you were in my situation, would you feel isolated or left out. I am 56 years old, so no longer a “spring chicken,” and not sure what the future holds for me since my kids will continue their public education here in Japan.
Big Zen |
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spiral78

Joined: 05 Apr 2004 Posts: 11534 Location: On a Short Leash
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Quote: |
If you were in my situation, would you feel isolated or left out |
Yes, I would.
I am in the situation you describe, but am functional in the local language. I occasionally have to ask people for a correct word and my grammar's not smooth, but it makes a tremendous difference to my life to be able to communicate.
Why do you think it's been so difficult for you to attain Japanese? Are you game to try further? |
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santi84
Joined: 14 Mar 2008 Posts: 1317 Location: under da sea
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 6:24 pm Post subject: |
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It's a common situation for immigrants. 25 years is a terribly long time to only reach a high beginner level, it sounds like you would benefit from different learning strategies. |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:21 pm Post subject: |
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Have you read the recent J forum thread on raising bilingual kids? Perhaps the problem is that no "policy" was decided between you and your wife and that the English has been effectively demoted or devalued to almost zero. It's probably too late now that they are 7 and 10 but who knows.
http://forums.eslcafe.com/job/viewtopic.php?t=115263
That being said, you shouldn't just be using and imposing English simply because you haven't learnt enough Japanese to understand what the wife and kids and whoever else might be saying in Japanese.
I'm not sure what to suggest but one place to start might be to watch English movies with Japanese subtitles (and possibly J dubbing, once you've seen the movie in English and if your kanji aren't quite up to the task of reading the subs) before trying to dive into purely native stuff. Only the other night I was watching a version of Nocturnal Animals with embedded Chinese subs and I was surprised at the amount that I could read and understand no problem (though with particularly fast passages one might need to pause or rewind momentarily to be able to read to the very end of certain sentences). It doubtless helps then when the material is that bit more relatable (as English films will surely be to you), plus this might be one way to introduce a little more English into your home while you're in the process learning (or should be learning!) a bit more Japanese each time. Here's to hoping you have a local Tsutaya or Gyokkodo or something.
I was lucky that my first stint in Japan was 3 years on JET. I'd mastered the kana and a range of basic phrases, and could already "read" if not always quite pronounce a lot of the kanji from having studied Chinese, so I had a bit more of a basis than some, but what really helped was having the free time to go to local bars and hang out listening to the J patrons conversing (and often enough they'd turn to me and ask a few questions). I also practised a fair bit of judo and other martial arts so there was a fair bit of interaction there too. After 3 years I was still not at the level that I could've got to with a bit more formal self-study on top, but I certainly didn't feel too excluded in my interactions with J people. If you have or can make time to do stuff like that it could really help, as family may not (ironically) always have the time to make focussed chat eh.
Looking forward to that Last Samurai moment when you astound your family with some flawless Japanese (though hopefully about more than simply refilling your rice bowl LOL). |
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Dr X
Joined: 04 Jul 2016 Posts: 84 Location: Everywhere
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Communication challenges with your family members |
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BigZen wrote: |
I am not sure if I have the definition correct, but “functionally literate.” |
I think your case can be described as a cultural miscommunication.
I suggest you read the blog 'Japanese Rule of 7'.
“These Western men do not really have to learn the language or try to fit in. Their Japanese girlfriends or wives will take care of the majority of things for them. Their careers, especially teaching ones, also may not require Japanese proficiency. They are never subjected to sexual harassment, abuse or sexism.” But is this the full story?
Embracing your non-Japaneseness, just being yourself, exploiting the “gaijin power” your outsider status affords you and simply enjoying the ride are the best ways to avoid the trap of loneliness and misery.
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/community/2015/03/23/voices/spare-thought-western-men-trapped-japan/#.WGQgM2bPu0c |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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Playing or being the dumb gaijin and/or zoning out does have its uses sometimes, but surely not all the time and with a family life being missed out on. |
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BigZen
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Japan
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Everyone,
Thank you very much for all the insightful replies.
They were all helpful and I appreciate it. No, my wife never did discuss a language policy for our kids.
I don't know why I have not been able to become as fluent in Japanese as other foreigners have. I have really worked hard at it, but the reality is, when I try to watch TV or eavesdrop on conversations my wife has with family, I am usually way off the mark in terms of what I believe they are talking about. 10 years ago I would have lied and said I understand, when I really did not, but now I just come clean and admit how most of what was said to me went over my head.
Sincerely,
Big Zen |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
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Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2016 11:31 pm Post subject: |
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You're welcome BigZen! Merry Christmas by the way.
I'm not sure if you've said somewhere if your wife speaks English, but I'm assuming she doesn't speak much (or doesn't want to). If so, that really must be tough, but you may just have to pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.
Perhaps part of the problem is that you are being too passive/never proactive enough, to the extent that little is being said to you specifically (thus lessening your chances of learning more directly), plus there is only so much you can do or communicate by being a "good" listener. There has to be a symbiosis between passive and more active processes.
What textbooks if any have you tried by the way? Have you tried no-nonsense speech-focussed stuff like Jorden's Japanese: The Spoken Language (3 volumes), or failing that Senko Maynard's An Introduction to Japanese Grammar and Communication Strategies (which lists JSL 1-2 in its bibliography) or Expressive Japanese: A Reference Guide to Sharing Emotion and Empathy (apparent excerpt here: www.uhpress.hawaii.edu/books/maynard-intro.pdf ). I also like Coscom's publications, such as Essential Japanese Verbs, and Japanese@Once, but they are more "quick reference" and devote less space to explaining things in much "abstract" detail, letting the examples and contexts more or less speak for themselves. Oh, and a dictionary like Kodansha's Communicative English-Japanese Dictionary could be useful, as it's quite detailed (a bit like an intermediate to advanced learner's dictionary), but designed specifically for English learners of Japanese and thus with furigana etc.
Anyway, you gotta (re)start somewhere, right?  |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 1562 Location: Kawasaki
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 5:47 am Post subject: |
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Other couples would have the home be an English zone, since outside is the Japanese one.
If you cannot talk to your kids in English, that will be a big problem.
Some people might even insist on living overseas for some time. And then the kids would get worse at Japanese.
Not knowing the language at a good enough level could be one reason why divorce happens.
Some wives get sick and tired with helping their husbands.
I haven't made it to N2 yet. Work tends to get in the way.
Japanese should be learned as young as possible, since it doesn't get easier later. |
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cartago
Joined: 19 Oct 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Iraq
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:27 am Post subject: |
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I don't have a family situation but these days almost all of my social interaction is with Kurdish speaking people who don't know English. I would say my language level is upper beginner as well. Most of the people I work with don't know English and the people I socialize with after work as well. You would think this would improve my language level but I don't think I'm progressing much and often I just tune out and think about other things while people are talking. It also is a problem that there aren't really textbooks to study Kurdish with, I just have to ask people how to say something and write it down. |
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BigZen
Joined: 19 Aug 2009 Posts: 56 Location: Japan
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:50 am Post subject: |
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Hi Everyone,
Again thanks for the replies. Much appreciated. My Japanese wife does speak English. Her English is MUCH better than my Japanese, therefore, we speak English. The truth is that over the course of our 14-year marriage I have asked her to try and speak Japanese to me to help me. She kind of finds this a nuisance, thus we have never really tried, to help me. Her father and brother I guess feel the same, that it is just too much bother to try and explain things to me in slower, easier Japanese. I have gone through many many textbooks, learning sites, and taken language classes at the local international center. I do get really psyched out now when I do try to speak to someone in Japanese, and when I don't understand will politely ask if they can repeat what they said. However, I find, more often than not, that even after they repeat the message 3-4 times, I am still not completely sure what the gist is of what they said. An example of a TV how my kids like is called "Yoshimoto Shikigeki." I can understand the physical humour, but none of the dialogue. I suppose this might be the challenge for EFL learners trying to watch a Woody Allen film.
Big Zen |
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fluffytwo
Joined: 24 Sep 2016 Posts: 139
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Posted: Thu Dec 29, 2016 4:25 pm Post subject: |
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I think you can be forgiven for not understanding rapid-fire Japanese TV comedy shows, that revolve around continual misunderstandings (to the point that the slightly too deliberate fool characters can start to get a bit wearing eh). I don't either, and wouldn't make a point of studying that kind of language or usage quite just yet!
To help keep things in perspective, consider this J guy, who has pretty darn fluent English, but who doesn't know (or can't work out) a number of idioms, some of which one might assume were common or easy enough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4kkMG4Zh4I&vl=en
Then, compare that to e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sCDI7GFik0 and you'll soon start thinking of all the things people may be doing wrong or could improve when language learning LOL. Come on, you've been an AET at least so you must surely have a glimmering of curiosity if not a few ideas about effective study strategies etc.
Textbooks can be a slog but you have to stick with and finish them so that the basics build up to at least a hill of unripened sauceless beans. And thorough series (like that JSL 1-3) will keep one busy for at least a year or two. Language lessons though I fear may be a lost cause if the JFL ones I've had were anything to go by, they were very much still stuck in what should be a bygone Is this a pen?-style era. There are more than enough decent examples, dialogues and texts around nowadays, what with all the dictionaries, apps, and stuff available on YouTube etc.
Last edited by fluffytwo on Mon Jan 02, 2017 12:47 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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mitsui
Joined: 10 Jun 2007 Posts: 1562 Location: Kawasaki
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Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:54 am Post subject: |
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Yoshimoto is from Osaka so that is a different dialect.
My spouse is from Osaka but I work in Kanto.
So I get to learn two kinds of Japanese. |
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blueberrymango
Joined: 27 Sep 2015 Posts: 32
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I teach in the US at a public school, and I have a lot of students whose parents speak a language different from English. At least here, I'd say that it's a fairly common dilemma. I have one student who has a Japanese mom, a Korean dad, and this student speaks English with a moderate understanding of Japanese (what is spoken at home). Several other students are Chinese and Japanese, with parents who speak beginning English. It is common for these students to attend Chinese School or Japanese School on the weekends, where they learn about their parents' culture and the language.
As a teacher, it can be tough to get information to these parents. They all really want their kids to do well, but it is frustrating for them not to be able to help their kids. One of my Japanese students had a D in my class, and his mom did not know because she relied on him entirely to give her information about how he was doing in school (she doesn't read English, so he translates anything sent home).
Moral of the story... it's not an uncommon situation, so you are not alone! Take some language classes, and enroll your children in an English class as well. Also, maybe you could set aside half an hour at home to speak in English with your family each night (maybe dinner time is English only?). Or, find a fun cartoon that is in English that you can watch and enjoy with your kids. |
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GambateBingBangBOOM
Joined: 04 Nov 2003 Posts: 2021 Location: Japan
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Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2017 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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Go to a real language school (not lessons at an international centre) that has Japanese language lessons with a Japanese language instructor. Get one on one lessons (in my experience this is VERY important). Even if you start back at the level of genki volume 1 then you will benefit from it. You need comprehensible input. And you need time to acquire language as opposed to learning a word and then forgetting it two minutes later. Some people have to learn vocab simply by writing the word in the target language then in the native language then covering and repeating. It's a long hard slog but when you do it that way and practice using those words with your teacher and with kids then you will slowly get better at it.
Get your kids into the habit of reframing their Japanese into very short sentences and speaking slowly when they speak to you. |
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