Job Discussion Forums

bentheviking · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 9 Location: Houston, TX

Hello all,

I recently had someone in academia tell me in response to my idea of taking a TEFL certificate course that these courses are merely "money machines" for the directors. This person did not go as far as to say they are all scams, but they did seem to think that even the legit courses were not worth the money. They even thought the CELTA (regarded as the most prestigious course by my understanding) was in the same category.

I agree that these courses aren't cheap, but are they complete rip-offs? Can you get a job without taking a course and no experience?

This person also suggested taking a course at a local university in the states before going.

Any comments?

MELEE · Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:52 pm Post subject: Big Mac or Fillet Minon

Of course you can get a job with no certificate and no experience, but that doesn't necessiarily mean that courses are a scam. Let me make a analogy.

You can get a job cooking at a fast food restauarnt with out any qualifications or experience as a cook or chef. They would train you to follow their exact instructions in preparing their food because it is very important to them that it is done in a very specific way so each item tastes the same in each of its locations. You wouldn't be making everything from scratch and they probably won't give you the recipe for "special sauce" you're just to spoon it on.

There are other small restuarants where you can get a job as an assistant in the kitchen with out any training or experience, and the head cook or chef with train you and guide you but probably encourage you to learn the principals behind good cooking and allow you some creativity and expect that you will some day leave for a better job or take over for them when they do.

Another route you could take is a short cooking course, and maybe get a job similar to the one above, but maybe at a more prestigious restuarant. Or a higher up job at a national chain that like the fast food places has guidelines and set recipes but wants you to have some existing knowledge. You could take this course after holding any of the pervious positions if you felt you wanted to persue cooking as a career.

If you took a longer, more indepth course, you could expect to get a job in a top notch restuarant where the menu changed to meet the season, trends, and other factors you probably wouldn't start as head chef, but you'd have a position where you were given responsiblity and expected to have knowledge of how to put together a certain dish, not just follow a recipe. You'd be expected to know the characteristics of different types of foods and spices, and tricks and techniques that allow dishes to come out just so. And you'd expect to move up in the culinary world as you gained experience. Again, you could work in any of the peviously mentioned jobs then decide that you wanted to go to school and become a professional chef.

On top of this training there are different branches you can specialize in Desserts, or French Food. You can either specialize by taking an additional course, or sometimes, you just pool up that sort of experience based on the job you get.

Teaching English is not that different. Here in Mexico the most widely known "Fast Food" school is Harmon Hall. They will teach you how to teach Harmon Hall English classes. They want you to do it exactly like they taught you to, so they don't care if you have no pervious training or experience. The pay and benefits are comparible to what you'd expect for a fast food job.

There are also schools that require there teachers to have appropriate degrees and years of expirience, and like wise expect them to cook up their own lessons, have an extensive knowledge of the language and know lots of different teaching techniques and methodologies. These jobs obviously have better pay and benefits.

And there is just about every job in between.

English Language Teacher Training programs vary widely, from weekend "taster" courses, to PhD programs. And just as in the food service industry, there are jobs for people anywhere along the scale.

thedude72 · Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Canada

Thanks Ben for raising this issue. I am also thinking of taking the TEFL course as well and am wondering if it is really worth it.

I think Melee's analogy is a really good one and it makes perfect sense. But perhaps you can start at a 'fast food' school like Harmon Hall, gain experience and confidence in the classroom and eventually move up to a school where you are allowed create your own lessons.

I believe teaching experience of any kind must be more valuable than just having a certificate, even if it is in a structured environment like Harmon Hall is supposed to be. I'm not sure if that is true, but I really hope to hear from more experienced teachers out there who can shed further light on the subject.

My guess as a newbie is that having a TEFL course will open more doors for you right away. But I am far from an expert, so I look forward to hearing from others on this matter.

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

some waygug-in · Joined: 07 Feb 2003 Posts: 339

I think I agree with what's been said above. As a graduate of one of those "scam" courses you spoke of, I have to say that ever since I started teaching, I always wished that I had taken a better course.

Mine was a one week thingy, not that it was all bad, it was just too short and there was no practice teaching involved.

I think CELTA and TEFL courses are well worth the money. I wish I had taken one of those courses instead of the fly by night, instant teacher, course.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that a CELTA guarantees that you will be a great teacher, but it does ensure that you will have the necessary tools to be able to get started. It may help you avoid some of those all too common "first time teacher mistakes".

Suerte

saraswati · Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 200

[quote="thedude72"]I think Melee's analogy is a really good one and it makes perfect sense. But perhaps you can start at a 'fast food' school like Harmon Hall, gain experience and confidence in the classroom and eventually move up to a school where you are allowed create your own lessons. quote]

Harmon Hall does hire teachers without experience and offers training, in their method, of course. What they don't give you, contrary to popular belief is a set of lesson plans to follow. Curriculum, yes...but lesson plans are still put together by each teacher allowing for his/her creativity to flow.

MELEE · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 2:36 pm Post subject:

Sorry, my mistake about lessons at Harmon Hall, I based my statement on my experience with large chain schools in Asia, and comments from students who attended Harmon Hall. I've never actually set foot in a Harmon Hall myself, so I shouldn't have jumped to that conclusion.

I also want to add, I think it is a valid place to start out as a teacher and see if you like it or not. Just as a short order cook is a valid starting point in a culinary career. Why spend a lot of money on school just to find out you don't want to do this for a living?? I think it is fine to try it out first and go back to school later. You just need to have realistic expectations about the job conditions that you can expect based on your training and experience.

Cheers

saraswati · Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 200

No need to apologize. I just wanted to clarify. I agree with your comment about there being a school/system for all. Teachers should really 'shop' around and find a school that suits their style.

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

The problem with most of the certificate programs is that, yes, they are cashing in on the demand for ESL teachers. That doesn't mean they are scams. Although some of them are.

It's simply not very logical to think that someone who has never taught anything is going to become a qualified teacher in a week or 4 weeks or in any course counted by weeks. But the certificate does give folks who in many cases otherwise would not have jobs a ticket to ride. Becoming a teacher--especially a good teacher--takes time. Like anything else worth doing.

bentheviking · Joined: 13 Jul 2004 Posts: 9 Location: Houston, TX

Thanks for all the great comments, everyone. I do like the analogy. That helps me get a perspective not having been to a TEFL course.

Honestly, I don't know the person who made the comment very well, and I suspected it was kind of an off-hand comment anyway. Nevertheless, most of the information I have about TEFL courses has been either through email or the Internet, which raises my skepticism a bit. I suppose there is that nagging fear/nightmare that I am going to pay a bunch of money only to arrive at an abandoned building in Mexico with no way to get my money back!

Fears aside, I am planning on taking the CELTA in Playa del Carmen, which I am pretty certain is not a scam. I realize that it is no substitute for a full-fledged degree. However, a degree (Masters) will set you back 2 years + and at least $20K (in-state tuition only). I challenged my astute academician friend with this argument, which got minimal response.

Well, I will keep researching. I agree that I need to find a course that fits my style. I think I would like something less structured....more recipes, less "just spoon on the sauce." Hopefully, CELTA is like that.

ls650 · Joined: 10 May 2003 Posts: 3484 Location: British Columbia

moonraven · Joined: 24 Mar 2004 Posts: 3094

Perhaps your friend in academia knew that you were not going to consider getting an Master's degree. In many cases, you get what you pay for. In others, you don't. No course or program of study is going to make you a teacher--you have to do that, COOPERATIVELY, with your students.

MELEE · Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject:

thedude72 · Joined: 30 Jul 2004 Posts: 39 Location: Canada

I agree with Moonraven that just having a course would not make one a great teacher. However, my hope would be that taking a TEFL course would give me the knowledge and confidence I need to eventually become a great teacher.

Right now, I would dread the thought of going into a classroom and trying to teach without any knowledge of lesson planning, classroom management, etc.

I would hope a 4 week TEFL program would at least give me the groundwork to build my teaching skills on. Sure it is expensive, but so is any kind of schooling these days am I right?

Do all of you who took the course found it helped your teaching skills? In other words, was it worth your hard earned dollars?

MixtecaMike · Joined: 19 Nov 2003 Posts: 643 Location: Guatebad

Worth my hard earned dollars?

Yes, even though they were Australian dollars and I actually inherited them. The Cambridge certificate I did -CTEFLA gave me an idea of what to do when facing a classroom of people, if also stuck me in front of some foreigners for a few hours at least, which is a confidence booster.

You write these god-awful lesson plans that seem to take about 90 minutes to plan for an hour long class; of course in real life you would never do such a thing, but knowing how to do it makes it easier when you don't do it. (Hope this makes sense.)

Basically I would say it teaches you how to use a range of tools, even if you don't use all (or any) of them it's still good to understand how they work.

Plus you can't deny it is the key to being hired in a lot of the less terrible beginner jobs.