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AV15
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 51
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 Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
@AV15, you're certainly not awarded QTS at the end of the PGCE course. First, there is a disctinction between the schools (UK compulsory age) and Adult (UK post-compulsory age) QTS. The schools one is called QTS but the Adult one is called QTLS. Both carry the same value. In order to be awarded QTS you have to go through a further year or year and a half on a mini-course at a college or school with further observations and 'supporting teaching professional' and do yet another test, and pay more money. I have not bothered with this QTS thing. To me it stinks of government money-making scam, but that's just my opinion. You actually don't need it, and any employer who requires this is being silly. They ought to scrap this waste-of-time QTS/QTLS.
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You're quite simply wrong, so kindly drop the confrontational posting style.
PGCE courses award QTS at the end, providing you pass of course. The extra year AFTER the PGCE is called 'induction', which you undertake as an NQT (newly qualified teacher). If you fail that year you are barred from teaching again in UK state maintained schools (but not academies). QTS is awarded at the end of the PGCE course, you'll get your certificate from the Department for Education a couple of weeks after finishing. |
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Shookran
Joined: 07 Aug 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
My second teaching area will be English so that might work out well for me  . I don't mind hard work and the Aussie dollar isn't exactly all-powerful so the conversion rate is still pretty attractive for us Antipodeans. If I can get a job in a decent school in a nice village then that's something I'd consider. Wouldn't really fancy the big cities. However, it's just one of the options I'm mulling over and I'm not married to it. |
You mean those quaint, little quiet villages with the quaint little butchers, baker, post office and one quaint little school? They only exist in TV series like Miss Marple and Midsomer Murders LOL. Well, I'm exhaggerating but they are disappearing fast. Many little vilages now consist of a busy main road with one hairdresser and an Indian restaurant. The cars have destroyed the villages. The kinds of places you will probably still find the villages you're imagining are in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The ones left in England are now populated by very rich people, many retirees. You would still find very nice and quiet small 'towns' but don't search the South-East of England because rental prices are mad, double the price of anywhere else. If I were you I'd look at Ireland where there are still little villages with people on horse-drawn carts LOL, and they love to drink and talk for hours  |
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AV15
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
My second teaching area will be English so that might work out well for me . I don't mind hard work and the Aussie dollar isn't exactly all-powerful so the conversion rate is still pretty attractive for us Antipodeans. If I can get a job in a decent school in a nice village then that's something I'd consider. Wouldn't really fancy the big cities. However, it's just one of the options I'm mulling over and I'm not married to it. |
Don't even consider it for a minute. I'm counting down the days till I finish my course. Trust me, there's 'hard work', then there's teaching in the UK. The amount they demand...it's beyond anything you've ever seen. The pay is crap and the hours are crazy. |
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siologen
Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: re: nice indeed!! |
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| If I were you I'd look at Ireland where there are still little villages with people on horse-drawn carts LOL, and they love to drink and talk for hours Rolling Eyes |
I do wonder if the little pubs/drinking dens still exist at the back of shops, as I heard of in my youth, or if they are just a mythical legend of time gone by  |
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currentaffairs
Joined: 22 Aug 2012
Posts: 828
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
There are two versions of the PGCE: Level 6 and Level 7
1. Professional Certificate in Education (This is Level 6 and I believe it is the most common PGCE)
2. Postgraduate Certificate in Education (This is what you qualify with if you have a Master's before starting the PGCE and some components of this one are studied at Level 7, Master's level, meaning more essays, longer essays and 120 hours of teaching practice instead of 100). This PGCE is also known as PGCertEd and is equivalent to the DELTA.
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Your information is wrong or muddled up. Please read through all the information carefully because you do have some good points to share. The PGCE is not really the PCE as you seem to claim. Go through some of these links below and you will see a standard PGCE course being offered with no MA required as well as the PCE course. This is my main point - a PGCE does not require an MA in order to get on a course and it is not 'really a PCE':
http://www.cardiffmet.ac.uk/education/courses/Pages/Post-Compulsory-Education-and-Training-(PCET)-PGCE-PCE.aspx
http://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/education/pgce/routesintoteaching/
If you check what Exeter says it is completely opposite to what you say:
'The University offers several routes into teaching.
Each of our routes leads to QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) and to a Masters-level Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) (not to be confused with the Professional Graduate Certificate in Education- also often referred to as PGCE: the Professional Certificate does not carry Master level credits and is one level lower on the National Qualifications Framework than is our Postgraduate Certificate).'
The PGCE doesn't require an MA in order to get on a course. Nowhere above does it say that a PGCE is actually a PCE. The PCE course is something different and not part of the regular primary and secondary PGCE courses offered in the UK. That PGCE course offered by Exeter is one level above the PCE course and it is a PGCE that only requires a BA in order to get on the course.
You say you know more about the FE sector and may be that is why you are mixing terms up. |
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Shookran
Joined: 07 Aug 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| currentaffairs wrote: |
| Shookran wrote: |
There are two versions of the PGCE: Level 6 and Level 7
1. Professional Certificate in Education (This is Level 6 and I believe it is the most common PGCE)
2. Postgraduate Certificate in Education (This is what you qualify with if you have a Master's before starting the PGCE and some components of this one are studied at Level 7, Master's level, meaning more essays, longer essays and 120 hours of teaching practice instead of 100). This PGCE is also known as PGCertEd and is equivalent to the DELTA.
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Your information is wrong or muddled up. Please read through all the information carefully because you do have some good points to share. The PGCE is not really the PCE as you seem to claim. Go through some of these links below and you will see a standard PGCE course being offered with no MA required as well as the PCE course. This is my main point - a PGCE does not require an MA in order to get on a course and it is not 'really a PCE':
http://www.cardiffmet.ac.uk/education/courses/Pages/Post-Compulsory-Education-and-Training-(PCET)-PGCE-PCE.aspx
http://socialsciences.exeter.ac.uk/education/pgce/routesintoteaching/
If you check what Exeter says it is completely opposite to what you say:
'The University offers several routes into teaching.
Each of our routes leads to QTS (Qualified Teacher Status) and to a Masters-level Postgraduate Certificate in Education (PGCE) (not to be confused with the Professional Graduate Certificate in Education- also often referred to as PGCE: the Professional Certificate does not carry Master level credits and is one level lower on the National Qualifications Framework than is our Postgraduate Certificate).'
The PGCE doesn't require an MA in order to get on a course. Nowhere above does it say that a PGCE is actually a PCE. The PCE course is something different and not part of the regular primary and secondary PGCE courses offered in the UK. That PGCE course offered by Exeter is one level above the PCE course and it is a PGCE that only requires a BA in order to get on the course.
You say you know more about the FE sector and may be that is why you are mixing terms up. |
Ah, I see my small error now, one word 'graduate.' It should be 1. Professional Graduate Certificate in Education (This is Level 6 and I believe it is the most common PGCE).
But in any case, I am still right about the two levels of PGCE, and I am still right that I do not mention that you need to have a Master's in order to take a PGCE; I said that if you have a Master's you will be doing the Master's level PGCE, that's all. |
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bigdurian
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 401
Location: Flashing my lights right behind you!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: re: nice indeed!! |
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| siologen wrote: |
| Quote: |
| If I were you I'd look at Ireland where there are still little villages with people on horse-drawn carts LOL, and they love to drink and talk for hours Rolling Eyes |
I do wonder if the little pubs/drinking dens still exist at the back of shops, as I heard of in my youth, or if they are just a mythical legend of time gone by |
I do remember the owner of the local corner shop where we used to buy booze underage, asking my mates and I to roll a few cigarettes of the Rastafarian variety one time. And we did sit in the room behind the shop. It turned out that the owner's son was in prison for distribution of the said tobacco. That was in SE London though. Does that count? |
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AV15
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
Ah, I see my small error now, one word 'graduate.' It should be 1. Professional Graduate Certificate in Education (This is Level 6 and I believe it is the most common PGCE).
But in any case, I am still right about the two levels of PGCE, and I am still right that I do not mention that you need to have a Master's in order to take a PGCE; I said that if you have a Master's you will be doing the Master's level PGCE, that's all. |
The problem is when you said this:
| Quote: |
| You would in effect have a part-TEFL Master's in your Level 7 PGCE |
You don't have a part time Masters. You have ONE THIRD of a Masters (that's what a Postgraduate Certificate is). No one accepts the PGCE is the academic equal of a Masters because it's not.
For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to say the PGCE is much harder than a Masters because of the school based practice. The practicums absolutely SUCK. Big time. But in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course. |
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Shookran
Joined: 07 Aug 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject: |
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| AV15 wrote: |
The problem is when you said this:
| Quote: |
| You would in effect have a part-TEFL Master's in your Level 7 PGCE |
You don't have a part time (oops, part time? No I said part as in part of a Master's) Masters. You have ONE THIRD of a Masters (Oh! You contradict yourself nicely. First you tell me that I don't have a part-Master's, then you say that I have ONE THIRD of a Master's) (that's what a Postgraduate Certificate is). No one accepts the PGCE is the academic equal of a Masters because it's not. (Yes I know, I already said that earlier in the thread. Did you miss that?)
For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to say the PGCE is much harder than a Masters because of the school based practice. The practicums absolutely SUCK. Big time. But in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course. |
I just totalled up my PGCE essays word-count and page-count:
42,000 Words (Average Master's thesis is around 12,000 to 15,000. PhD thesis minimum is around 40,000 words!)
107 pages
So, as you say, in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course .. not much then |
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AV15
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
| AV15 wrote: |
The problem is when you said this:
| Quote: |
| You would in effect have a part-TEFL Master's in your Level 7 PGCE |
You don't have a part time (oops, part time? No I said part as in part of a Master's) Masters. You have ONE THIRD of a Masters (Oh! You contradict yourself nicely. First you tell me that I don't have a part-Master's, then you say that I have ONE THIRD of a Master's) (that's what a Postgraduate Certificate is). No one accepts the PGCE is the academic equal of a Masters because it's not. (Yes I know, I already said that earlier in the thread. Did you miss that?)
For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to say the PGCE is much harder than a Masters because of the school based practice. The practicums absolutely SUCK. Big time. But in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course. |
I just totalled up my PGCE essays word-count and page-count:
42,000 Words (Average Master's thesis is around 12,000 to 15,000. PhD thesis minimum is around 40,000 words!)
107 pages
So, as you say, in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course .. not much then |
42,000? WTF?
Combining all the essays I've had to do for the PGCE, it's 7,000 words. One 3,000 essay, one 4,000.
I don't really understand what you mean by a 'part-TEFL' masters unless you were referring to 'part time'. There's pretty much nothing relating to TEFL in the PGCE. Maybe a couple of lectures about EAL students, that's it. |
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bigdurian
Joined: 05 Feb 2014
Posts: 401
Location: Flashing my lights right behind you!
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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Both of you are just pi****g in the wind. Does it really matter?
Nobody cares how you got your qualifications ATEOTD. Just the fact you have them is enough. |
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Shookran
Joined: 07 Aug 2016
Posts: 42
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:42 pm Post subject: |
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| AV15 wrote: |
| Shookran wrote: |
| AV15 wrote: |
The problem is when you said this:
| Quote: |
| You would in effect have a part-TEFL Master's in your Level 7 PGCE |
You don't have a part time (oops, part time? No I said part as in part of a Master's) Masters. You have ONE THIRD of a Masters (Oh! You contradict yourself nicely. First you tell me that I don't have a part-Master's, then you say that I have ONE THIRD of a Master's) (that's what a Postgraduate Certificate is). No one accepts the PGCE is the academic equal of a Masters because it's not. (Yes I know, I already said that earlier in the thread. Did you miss that?)
For what it's worth, I'd be inclined to say the PGCE is much harder than a Masters because of the school based practice. The practicums absolutely SUCK. Big time. But in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course. |
I just totalled up my PGCE essays word-count and page-count:
42,000 Words (Average Master's thesis is around 12,000 to 15,000. PhD thesis minimum is around 40,000 words!)
107 pages
So, as you say, in terms of academic writing, you really don't have to do much on a PGCE course .. not much then |
42,000? WTF?
Combining all the essays I've had to do for the PGCE, it's 7,000 words. One 3,000 essay, one 4,000.
I don't really understand what you mean by a 'part-TEFL' masters unless you were referring to 'part time'. There's pretty much nothing relating to TEFL in the PGCE. Maybe a couple of lectures about EAL students, that's it. |
I am totally serious and I would show them to you. I had an extra 'specialism' (ESOL & Functional Skills English), which accounted for about a third of the essays. I had four different tutors, and four different sets of essays. So without the extra component it would come to around 28,000 words. Now take away the extra essays that I had to do because I was doing it at Master's level and the remainder might still be around 20,000 for a non-Master's level PGCE today. It was a very stressful amount of essay work, which we had to do in two parts, one in December 2014 and the other in June of 2015. |
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AV15
Joined: 27 Feb 2017
Posts: 51
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| Posted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
I am totally serious and I would show them to you. I had an extra 'specialism' (ESOL & Functional Skills English), which accounted for about a third of the essays. I had four different tutors, and four different sets of essays. So without the extra component it would come to around 28,000 words. Now take away the extra essays that I had to do because I was doing it at Master's level and the remainder might still be around 20,000 for a non-Master's level PGCE today. It was a very stressful amount of essay work, which we had to do in two parts, one in December 2014 and the other in June of 2015. |
If this is true (which I'm not convinced about) then you had a bad PGCE program.
My Masters level PGCE has been 7,000 words. And to be honest, it was fairly easy stuff, although I've always been very good at academic writing.
The placements on the other hand...those are hell on Earth. Awful kids, high workload, and garbage money. |
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1st Sgt Welsh
Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 946
Location: Bandar Seri Begawan, Brunei
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Shookran wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
My second teaching area will be English so that might work out well for me . I don't mind hard work and the Aussie dollar isn't exactly all-powerful so the conversion rate is still pretty attractive for us Antipodeans. If I can get a job in a decent school in a nice village then that's something I'd consider. Wouldn't really fancy the big cities. However, it's just one of the options I'm mulling over and I'm not married to it. |
You mean those quaint, little quiet villages with the quaint little butchers, baker, post office and one quaint little school? They only exist in TV series like Miss Marple and Midsomer Murders LOL. Well, I'm exhaggerating but they are disappearing fast. Many little vilages now consist of a busy main road with one hairdresser and an Indian restaurant. The cars have destroyed the villages. The kinds of places you will probably still find the villages you're imagining are in Ireland, Scotland and Wales. The ones left in England are now populated by very rich people, many retirees. You would still find very nice and quiet small 'towns' but don't search the South-East of England because rental prices are mad, double the price of anywhere else. If I were you I'd look at Ireland where there are still little villages with people on horse-drawn carts LOL, and they love to drink and talk for hours |
I used to live in the UK and saw a lot of charming English villages when I was there. However, that was almost twenty years ago. If life in those communities has changed substantially since then then I think that's a real shame! I'd certainly be interested in Scotland and Wales (beautiful countries), but, all the recruiter e-mails that I get just concentrate on England which, of course, has a much larger job market.
I also lived in Ireland, adored the country and would seriously consider going back, but, I'm not sure if I can get a visa/sponsorship there, or even what the employment prospects are for foreign teachers. Something to bear in mind though. Thanks for the suggestion and I might do some research.....
| AV15 wrote: |
| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
My second teaching area will be English so that might work out well for me . I don't mind hard work and the Aussie dollar isn't exactly all-powerful so the conversion rate is still pretty attractive for us Antipodeans. If I can get a job in a decent school in a nice village then that's something I'd consider. Wouldn't really fancy the big cities. However, it's just one of the options I'm mulling over and I'm not married to it. |
Don't even consider it for a minute. I'm counting down the days till I finish my course. Trust me, there's 'hard work', then there's teaching in the UK. The amount they demand...it's beyond anything you've ever seen. The pay is crap and the hours are crazy. |
I hear ya. I don't doubt it and, like I said, there must be reasons as to why they are experiencing teacher shortages. However, if I work in Australia, chances are that I'll be sent to an outback posting, which has its own set of disadvantages and problems. Besides, there are a lot of well-paid British international schools out there and a couple of years of UK experience would come in handy. I'm not averse to paying my dues providing it leads to something better later on. Anyway, although the thought of living in Europe is appealing, it probably won't happen and, at this stage, it's just one of many possible options. I'm just trying to keep an open mind in regards to the opportunities out there. I appreciate the advice though and good luck with the rest of your course! |
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grahamb
Joined: 30 Apr 2003
Posts: 1945
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| Posted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Teacher! Teacher! |
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| 1st Sgt Welsh wrote: |
| I'd certainly be interested in Scotland and Wales (beautiful countries), but, all the recruiter e-mails that I get just concentrate on England which, of course, has a much larger job market. |
Stop wasting time with recruiters; for teaching vacancies in Scotland go to
https://www.myjobscotland.gov.uk/categories/education |
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