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siologen



Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
PostPosted: Fri May 12, 2017 7:42 pm    Post subject: re: exactly! Reply with quote
EDITED OUT.

Last edited by siologen on Sat May 13, 2017 7:24 am; edited 1 time in total
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
siologen wrote:
Quote:
Some of my Saudi colleagues had TESOL-related MAs and/or doctorates from US and British universities. Several were native/near-native English speakers having spent so many years in the US as children.

The thing is though as of right now, whether one likes it or lumps it, native english speakers are still advertised for, and they do get paid more than the non native speaker. I have seen this happen in Oman, even in the case of an Indian who was significantly more qualified than I was!

Frankly, I never focused on what others -- native and non-native speakers -- got paid. It was none of my business and something I had no control over anyway.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing up Oman. Plus, this isn't about your salary vs what your Indian coworker was paid. I was referring to Saudis who have TESOL-related degrees and native/near-native English language proficiency. Case in point, the Saudi I co-taught with has an MA TESOL from a US public university and also did her teaching practicum in the States. We easily bounced ideas off each other for the class we shared; I viewed her as my equal. Ditto for the Saudi classmate in my educational tech degree program. He had no problem completing the assignments, joining discussions, compiling his portfolio, etc. The point is, English fluency and nationality aren't the only criteria items in terms of qualifications.

As for ads targeting EFL teachers from Anglophone countries, be aware that Saudis aren't part of that recruitment scheme. They're recruited directly by universities and schools and not hired as foreign contractors. (Since when does a Saudi need a visa, flights, etc., to work in his/her own country?)

and siologen wrote:
But as you rightly state, as the belt tightens, jobs will go to nationals first.

That's not what I meant. Saudization isn't tied to how prosperous the country is. It's mainly about the economics of capacity building, human development, and sustainability. The goal is to boost Saudi employment by replacing foreigners with qualified nationals across all sectors. That's not limited to reducing the number of western, English-speaking guest workers; Egyptians, Sudanese, Jordanians, and expats from other MENA countries are included in that mix as well. Ditto for nationals from India, Pakistan...
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ex500



Joined: 27 Nov 2010
Posts: 44
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The question for me is are there MALE Saudis with suitable qualifications willing to teach prep year and vocational college English?

Are these above Saudis sitting around unemployed?

I have yet to come across one male Saudi ESL teacher in the 4 places I've worked since 2014.

BTW, the difference between native and non-native is that the native is usually from a well developed western country and has mentality different than someone from Egypt or Pakistan. There is no Harvard in Egypt or Pakistan. The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice.
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nomad soul



Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
PostPosted: Sat May 13, 2017 11:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
ex500 wrote:
The question for me is are there MALE Saudis with suitable qualifications willing to teach prep year and vocational college English?

Are these above Saudis sitting around unemployed?

I have yet to come across one male Saudi ESL teacher in the 4 places I've worked since 2014.

They exist. I've met male Saudis with TESOL-related MAs/doctorates from western universities while at TESOL Arabia. I still correspond with one via Linkedin.

and ex500 wrote:
The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice.

And yet, those Saudis who completed their degrees in the west have been directly exposed to a "western mindset" to education as well.

FYI, Saudi Arabia have been sending more students to the west (predominantly to the US) compared to other countries in the GCC. See Middle Eastern Students Abroad: In Numbers and Rapid rise of Saudi students in America. In fact, Aramco was likely to have sent the first Saudi scholarship students to the US in the late 1950s.
.
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sicklyman



Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
bigdurian wrote:
veiledsentiments wrote:
locals... always make more than even Western expat native speakers.

Not true where I work.

not true where I work either... at a very large energy company... Wink
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siologen



Joined: 25 Oct 2016
Posts: 336
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 10:05 am    Post subject: re: very well said... Reply with quote
Quote:
The idea is a native is raised in a different culture with regards to education and will bring a western mindset to education in the country. So instead of sending their kids to good colleges in the US or UK, they bring the teachers here... That's the idea it doesn't necessarily work in practice.


Give this person a cee-gar. That sums up what I wanted to type in response to NS. It is about knowing the nuances of the language, in a way that someone who studied english overseas may not.
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voyagerksa



Joined: 29 Apr 2015
Posts: 140
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 1:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
The Saudi's pork barrel oil economy is at an end. Of course they're going to cut expat teachers. Really native English teachers don't do the Saudis any good anyway. Regardless of the myriad of reasons for that, it's in the best interests of the Saudis to cut expat teaching, except teaching that comes from other Arabs. Cheaper than NETs and they understand each other.
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veiledsentiments



Joined: 20 Feb 2003
Posts: 17644
Location: USA
PostPosted: Sun May 14, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
sicklyman wrote:
bigdurian wrote:
veiledsentiments wrote:
locals... always make more than even Western expat native speakers.

Not true where I work.

not true where I work either... at a very large energy company... Wink

My experience around the Gulf in universities and from friends in the schools is that the locals will get at the least the top of the salary scale plus "benefits" that expats do not receive. (similar to the fact that local students get paid to attend)

Not that most of us have a clue what the locals might be paid.

VS
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