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Seth
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 575
Location: in exile
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 Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Communist Smurf wrote: |
| Seth wrote: |
| That's why George the First and Le Worm didn't take out Saddam in the first Gulf War, why waste a perfectly good dictator? |
I don't disagree with anything you said except for this. They definetely wanted to take him out and were specifically told they couldn't by the Saudi government. The Saudis would not allow the US to continue to use the bases. I'm going from memory and can't remember the details why.
CS |
i've heard it was because bush and the UN didn't have a good exit strategy and didn't want to get bogged down (which, in hindsight, may have been wise, but we'll see how things go in the future). I believe I've seen interviews on TV where he has said that but my memory is also fuzzy.
but being that i was 14 at the time i'm not certain. |
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Communist Smurf
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Fri Aug 13, 2004 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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| Ludwig wrote: |
| I suppose, in some vague sense, it must actually be quite very nice and jolly to live in a world (of one's own making) in which everything is nicely laid out in an easy-to-digest fashion by The New York Times. |
It is kind of nice. I also have ice cream at noon followed by naptime every day. I usually top the day off with the Times and Fox News. Ignorance is Bliss!
So... Should I have quoted several articles from difference sources? Or do you object to the use of the New York Times altogether?
| Ludwig wrote: |
| Thomas Freidman, who was once the diplomatic correspondent for the august publication you cite, viz., The New York Times , wrote (during the second Gulf War) that in Iraq the best of all worlds for the United States would be an "iron fisted military junta" that would rule Iraq the same way Saddam Hussein did, but with a change of name". |
Is this your proof of why the New York Times is a bad paper? Not that this is the point.
1. The food-for-oil program was a UN screw-up (or "not just"), not US.
2. The UN isn't doing what they're supposed to be doing or can't be trusted/relied upon. The world said, prior to the Iraq war, going to war with Iraq would be illegal without international (read: UN) permission.
| Ludwig wrote: |
| I would suggest you take a look at a document entitled 'How the US deliberately destroyed Iraq's water', by Thomas J. Nagy, (29 August, 2001). I will give two brief extracts: |
Your articles only prove the US had foreknowledge that this could happen. Not that the US planned it.
The only conclusion we can make from this is that the measures taken (food-for-oil) didn't work.
CS |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 6:46 am Post subject: |
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| Seth wrote: |
| Besides, gulf war 1 was a UN war, and the sanctions were UN sanctions, not US sanctions. |
The 'Gulf War 1' to which I referred was, in fact, the Persian Gulf War between Iraq and Iran, in which the former received substantial support (either military or financial) from, among others, the former USSR, the US, the UK, France, the House of Saud, and Kuwait. The second Gulf War was that of 1991 and that was in no way a "UN war"; after all, China exercised its power of veto at the Security Council. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 9:24 am Post subject: |
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| He could have started a thread "Ten good reasons why the U.S.A. cannot be the world's final arbitrator" |
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Will.
Joined: 02 May 2003
Posts: 783
Location: London Uk
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 10:53 am Post subject: |
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Oh really!
"The pride of our alley" thank you.
CS claims to be employed by the government. I wonder if this is part of the job. Researching anti american sentiment on the net? A cheapskate method of doing it.
Not a teacher? Never a teacher, ever, not before? This explains the inability to learn from others and accept the fact that others do not like you or your intransigence in accepting that they, as you, have opinions that do not need to be reinforced by reams of supporting evidence from other places or people. They have minds and they are made up. set in their ways they know from experience that what they say may not please you and may make you all the more defensive but is not intended to send you into denial.
Take some time off CS. Go smell the roses or the coffee. You are obviously not enjoying yourself here.
And one more thing, you will, note the use of the modality, not improve things in your current persona. You are merely adding fuel to the fire and creating even more anti-American sentiment by your endeavours to prove the opposite.
Damned if you do, damned if you don't. |
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skeptic
Joined: 30 Jun 2004
Posts: 73
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 2:53 pm Post subject: |
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What was it CS said that was so inflamatory?
Was it this?
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| Your articles only prove the US had foreknowledge that this could happen. Not that the US planned it. |
This?
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| I'm not proud that I'm not an English teacher because I thought about becoming one and may even in the distance future (not likely though). |
Perhaps it was this?
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| I don't disagree with anything you said except for this. They definetely wanted to take him out and were specifically told they couldn't by the Saudi government. |
Or, perhaps it was this?
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| Just because a waste is how you characterise your profession doesn't mean you should group everyone else in with you. |
What is the basis for this attack? I am puzzled. |
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mjed9
Joined: 25 Oct 2003
Posts: 242
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Recently I have become addicted to this website
http://www.chomsky.info/
Does this man ever say anything stupid?
There is one interview on the site where he states that in the West our level of freedom in many ways renders us impotent (to me an highly impressionable and compelling argument). Why would we want to stand up and boo our respective governments (therefore unsettling our happy little "status quo" bubble-like existence) until the trouble actually sits in our front room? |
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Communist Smurf
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Will. wrote: |
| This explains the inability to learn from others and accept the fact that others do not like you or your intransigence in accepting that they, as you, have opinions that do not need to be reinforced by reams of supporting evidence from other places or people. |
I have, on a number of occasions, conceded to other people's point of view on here. I think you would prefer to assume I haven't because I'm on the side of the line that isn't popular here.
You've only managed to demonstrate your own foolishness.
CS |
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Communist Smurf
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 4:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Ludwig wrote: |
| The 'Gulf War 1' to which I referred was, in fact, the Persian Gulf War between Iraq and Iran, in which the former received substantial support (either military or financial) from, among others, the former USSR, the US, the UK, France, the House of Saud, and Kuwait. The second Gulf War was that of 1991 and that was in no way a "UN war"; after all, China exercised its power of veto at the Security Council. |
I'll admit you have good writing ability, but your research needs work. I can say for *certain* that Iraq received no support from Saudi Arabia and I'm pretty sure not from Kuwait.
I also have no idea why you would expect everyone to know when you said "Gulf War 1" everyone would know you were referring to the war between Iraq and Iran. This isn't accepted by modern convention so you shouldn't assume people would know.
I noticed you have a way of ignoring issues when someone bothers to answer you.
CS
Edit: I just re-read your post and it's kinda funny. You never actually said "Gulf War 1" but you did refer to a second Gulf war. The funny thing is that when I read your post the first time, I'd assumed you meant the 1991 Gulf War (even though you called it the second one) mostly because of your reference to Thomas Freidman. But none of that changes the fact that your thinking is all wrong. Seth was right regardless what want war you want to call it. It was UN Sanctions and the UN's food-for-oil. Why you brought up Iraq/Iran I have no idea. You were even wrong about that too. |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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| Communist Smurf wrote: |
| I can say for *certain* that Iraq received no support from Saudi Arabia and I'm pretty sure not from Kuwait. |
I am sorry to say that your certainty is somewhat misplaced. As pointed out by Naomi Sakr, (economics editor, Arabia magazine), at the end of April, 1981, "Kuwait's National Assembly approved a $2,000 million interest-free loan to help Iraq repair damage caused during the war with Iran" ("Economics relations between Iraq and other Arab Gulf states", in Tim Niblock, ed., Iraq: The Contemporary State, University of Exeter, Centre for Arab Gulf Studies, Croom Helm, 1982, p.150). (My added stress, bankers do not tend to give interest-free loans without prior reason).
Some not inconsiderable financial assistance was offered to Iraq by Saudi Arabia, too. The Kuwaiti newspaper Al-Rai al-Aam, (April 16, 1981), reported that the desert kingdom had pledged some $6,000 million to the Iraqi regime (ibid.).
As regards the term 'the 1st Gulf War'. Actually, in this particular field, that is the convention, (as even a cursory glance at the literature readily demonstrates). |
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Communist Smurf
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Sat Aug 14, 2004 5:13 pm Post subject: |
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Wait a minute... why did we even start talking about Iraq/Iran?!?!?
You brought it up for no reason, whatsoever.
Nevertheless, I'll get back to you about it tomorrow. By the war, pledging money to help rebuild isn't the same as supporting them in a war. The war was over by April 1981.
Do you always use double negation because you think it sounds better?
CS |
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Ludwig
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 1096
Location: 22� 20' N, 114� 11' E
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| Posted: Mon Aug 16, 2004 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Communist Smurf wrote: |
| Nevertheless, I'll get back to you about it tomorrow. |
What day is it which is said never to actually come? |
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Communist Smurf
Joined: 24 Jun 2003
Posts: 330
Location: San Francisco
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| Posted: Tue Aug 17, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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I thought about replying with my results but decided to drop it. Saudi Arabia provided no financial, military, or otherwise, support to Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war. Providing money to help rebuild is different. I don't know why you brought it up to begin with.
CS |
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