Job Discussion Forums

[crabdog]

Okay here goes.. It seems almost everybody has a different opinion on TL and WP requirements in Thailand. I'm interested in working over there but until I get some straight answers I have to put everything on hold.

The problem: I'll be TESOL certified but do not have a BA. I wrote an email to TEFL International in Ban Phe asking about my eligibility to work in Thailand. Here is part of the response I got:

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

G'day Mate:

I was hoping someone else would answer this one. I am not a visa guru.

And you're right. It's hard to get solid information on work permits and visas. Part of the reason for this is that current visa/wp regulations are being revised, reformed, updated, or whatever you call it when a sitting government decides to make major changes to existing immigration laws. This is causing some confusion, as nobody really knows exactly what the final results will look like. At the moment, visa/wp rumours are spreading faster than the Bill & Monica scandal of a few years ago.

Further compounding this confusion is the stark reality that many EFL teachers in Thailand (maybe as high as 50%?) are already 'technically' not working legally, and they hesitate to jump into public forums to discuss it.

Many of these people are working on tourist visas, doing border runs every 30 days. Others, myself included, are here on a non-immigrant-B Visa, which can be extended for up to one year, but is still not the same as a work permit. [i.e., the visa and the work permit are completely separate entities]

The non-immigrant-B Visa is relatively easy to get; the work permit requires a lot more paperwork. On top of that paperwork, the number of work permits that any given employer can issue is governed by a quota system, which is based on the total capitalization of the school itself. In plain English - the bigger chain schools with more capital get more work permits; the smaller schools with less capital get fewer work permits.

So, even if you were eligible for a work permit, there's a fair chance you'd never see it. Schools often promise it, but sometimes don't (or can't) deliver it.

With specific regard to work permits: the info you received from Tefl International is not necessarily in conflict with the info you received from your Embassy. If you have a look at the link below, you'll see that there is a distinction between categories of visas, depending on whether you're employed by a public school or by a private school.

This link is located on the official Thai Immigration.com homepage, by the way. The files need to be downloaded in PDF format, but if you're looking for factual information, you should be able to find it here. You'll notice if you click on the top right-hand link, entitled Visas --- it says 'This page is under construction' --- which is probably an indication of the immigration reforms & pending changes I mentioned in my second paragraph.

http://www.thaiimmigration.com/tse.php

In summary, I'd say this much, crabdog. Without a BA, you may have a bit more difficulty landing a well-paid job and obtaining a work permit. That doesn't mean it will be impossible. Having that TESOL qualification, which you mentioned, will definitely work in your favour; no doubt about that.

If you find the right employer; one who has some 'connections' with local immigration officials ... and they want to hire you, they'll find a way to do it, with or without a BA.

I know that's not the most comforting thought in the world, but TiT (This is Thailand!) where black & white was replaced by grey a long time ago.



PS: The above link was kindly provided by kenkannif and reposted from The Master Index.

PSS: Will the real visa gurus now kindly step forward?

[crabdog]

Thanks so much for your help Kent.

I guess the sensible thing would be too hold out a bit longer until the rules have been revised/reformed. I was hoping to get there in October (supposedly a good time to find a job) but I'll wait and see what happens. If it doesn't happen soon though, I'll probably just go to China but I know that would break my fiances heart (she's thai). Not to mention my vulnerable little ticker ^^.

At this point Thailand seems like quite a gamble.
*What do you think my chances would be of landing a job under these circumstances? I'm not concerned too much about the salaries (I know they're bad all over Thailand) and I don't care too much about the location as long as it's in LOS somewhere.

Thanks again Kent and if anyone else can elaborate on the subject your input would be much appreciated.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

With a Thai wife, your situation may be better than you think. When are you planning to get married? Have you discussed this matter with the Thai Consulate in Brisbane?

Regardless of all that, and based on your strong desire and positive attitude, I feel confident that you'll find a good EFL position in Thailand. Don't let the visa 'confusion thing' get you down.

Hang in there ... and good luck, crabdog!

[kenkannif]

Okay while it is sometimes possible to get a work permit as a teacher here without a degree (or equivalent) it's the exception rather than the rule. I know a few people that have managed it (legally) and this is generally what happens (stolen from Thai Visa, but I'll leave his signature!):

It is not true that you MUST have a degree to get a work permit. In think that current government policy DOES require that you have a degree to be a tecaher -including and English teacher.

There is a specific form and procedure at the work permit office that must be filled out for foreigners applying who have no University degree. It must be signed by a company director.

The short of it is: if you do not have a degree, then you want to bring as much documenttaion as you possibly can concerning what credentials and experience you do have. If you have documentation showing that you have been to any technical certification courses (MSCE, or Cisco certification, or whatever) - bring it. If possible, bring employment letters from employers covering at least the five most recent years - they need to identify the employer, the nature of its business, your job position, the dates held, what your job responsibilities were, and that your performed well - and be signed by the company CEO/President/Managing Director, on company letterhead - with stamps, seals, even notary apostilizations (if possible - but not required) - the Thai officials eat this stuff up.

Lacking a University degree, it is up to you to DOCUMENT that you have adequate actual work experience, and then your supervisor needs to certify thart he/she has reviewed your qualifications, finds you suitable to perform the function, and that a Thai cannot reasonably be expected to be hired to do the job instead of you.

Good luck!

Steve Sykes
Managing Director
Indo-Siam Group
Bangkok
[email protected]
www.thaistartup.com

[kenkannif]

Right. Also it depends who, what and where you're teaching. For example if you were teaching outside of a the main (Bangkok, Pattaya, Phuket etc.) towns it's easier to get a WP without a degree (cutting out the teachers licence part as that's generally what requires you to have a degree). Also I've heard if you're teaching kindy kids you're not supposed to need to have a degree, but it's whether or not the school emplying you knows this.

If you get employed at a business for example it's possible to get a work permit as a consultant or instructor, this again can help to avoid the need in having a degree.

Crabdog,

You want to apply for a multiple entry Non-imm O (or B, but I'd go for the O if I were you). Brisbane are nice so you shouldn't have a problem with them. Do you have the required 400k to extend your Visa? If so drop me a PM and I'll give you my advice in regards to this. Also where do you plan on teaching? What age? Etc.

As Kent says it's a doddle to get work here, the hard thing is to be 100% legit. I'd say at least 50% of teachers here don't have a WP, and regularly have to do runs etc. I know a few people that don't actually want a WP. And also while some schools do get WPs because of the money invested (or whatever) this generally applies to proper business rather than schools per se. I know private language schools can get as many (and sometimes a couple more) WPs as they have classrooms in their building. Sending teachers to other government schools, or business is NOT classed as a classroom. And I know very few schools that have 100 classrooms but use only 50 for their on-site teachers and the other 50 to get WPs for the staff working outside (which unless they state where they're working they won't strictly cover you anyway!).

Also be a little wary of the thaiimmigration website, while most of the info on there is good, they don't really know what they're talking about in some cases (teachers licence and WP etc.).

Brisbane while nice and that, are talking rot though. Basically if a school really, really wants you, they can have you. Thing is most of them can't be bothered.

[crabdog]

Thanks a lot Kenkannif for the assistance.

Kent,

In response to your question about getting married: I like the idea of a lengthy engagement, especially considering I have not lived with my fiance for any considerable amount of time. I just want to make sure before I take the big step, so I won't take that path just yet.

Kenkannif,

I'm not concerned about the location specifically, I just want to be within a few hours bus/train ride from Bangkok so I can see my fiance on my days off (she works for BTS in BKK). As for the students: children or adults are both fine with me and I chose the Business English as my extra TEFL elective so that could be an option as well. It looks as if Business English tutoring would be a good option for outside/extra work as the rates seem quite reasonable.

I think you guys have made it clear enough for me and I'm willing to give it a try As a safety precaution I'll just make sure I bring enough money for a ticket to China if things don't work out.

Great website, thanks for the help.