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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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 Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 9:27 am Post subject: Re: Take it or leave it, sure. |
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| timmytopee wrote: |
| As far as SARAMCO, some instructors would be working with co-workers who go home to beautiful compounds, security, movie theaters and free food... while others basically "go local......" ...... in the end, I've decided NOT to accept the SARAMCO deal. I'd rather not live seeing others "live the good life" while I'm budgeting to send money (yes, I know, quite a bit) back home. I would eventually grow bitter. Life is too short. |
I think you made the wiser decision if for no other reason than that you were going to KSA under false impressions. Despite everything you've been told and cautioned about here on this thread, it appears you simply didn't want to hear what you were hearing.
There is no 2–tiered system at play here. What there is is two totally different categories of employees.....One consists of full–fledged K–12 certified teachers who have had to pass stringent and on–going professional education and training to obtain their credentials usually in one subject area and who can legally enter a classroom in a particular state to teach. They have their unions, state retirement plans and so on. One reason they have long summer vacations is because to KEEP their credentials active, they must usually spend a lot of their summer upgrading (so–called) their skills by taking advanced courses of one sort or another. They have to undergo interview after interview, get fingerprinted, undergo full–field background investigations (police report won't do) and so on. (It's actually more difficult to become a K–12 teacher (and remain one) than it is to become a college professor).
The second category consists of trainers (not really "teachers") like you and me who "got" an undergraduate degree, usually in one of the humanities and then sort of on– the– fly..... in places like Valparaiso or Saigon...... picked up one of those ESL "certificates" that purport to fully "train" you in the niceties and nuances of "teaching" ESL". ( You still see ads blaring "ANY UNDERGRADUATE DEGREE WILL DO)......Any?
Individuals in the first category are very difficult to get, for a variety of reasons I won't go into here. Individuals in the 2nd category are a dime a dozen. As I've told my HR people on several occasions.....send me to Bangkok for a couple of weeks and I'll have at least 20 ESL "teachers" ready to come (or return) to KSA....they've never taken me up on it).
Your comment that you would have resented working alongside Category 1 teachers shows how far away from reality your ideas were. Truth is, you would never have come in contact with or even seen these teachers. They are teaching K–12 students at Aramco schools... you are "teaching" trainees far away at the "training site".
The cruelty (if that's the word) in all this is that "recruiters" count on your being totally uninformed about all this and try to give you the impression that you're going to work for "Aramco"......you're not. You're a contractee. In the same way that the Bangladeshi cleaners are allowed on the Aramco compound as contractees to fulfill their duties, so equally are you allowed in at the Aramco training site to fulfill yours. They'll never tell you this, of course, but in their eyes, you're not really a teacher in the classic sense of the word.....you're a "trainer".....a world of difference......Sorry.
I sincerely hope you were not one of those who went to Houston and had to pay for his own round–trip flight there without getting reimbursed. As I recall, some of the "recruiters" were very clear about this – You pay.
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: erm |
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| I don't get hat this guy's beef is. $7-8000/month for teaching English is a rare bird indeed. Heck, I can teach what Aramco calls job skills and am on $8500. |
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: Re: erm |
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edit out
Last edited by hash on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| hash wrote: |
| dragonpiwo wrote: |
| I don't get hat this guy's beef is. $7-8000/month for teaching English is a rare bird indeed. Heck, I can teach what Aramco calls job skills and am on $8500. |
Oh, it's very clear what he was saying. Working FOR ARAMCO as a direct hire is very different from working AT ARAMCO as an outside contractee . Your sponsor (i.e. employer) is the contractor, not Aramco, even if you spend most of your time working at the Aramco compound.
Contractors, apparently, very seldom include housing as part of THEIR deal.....you have to find it yourself, furnish it, turn on utilities and so forth. You usually have to be transported to and from work, usually a long (and perilous) distance and there are few benefits.
All this...and much more....is taken care of if you are a direct hire of Aramco. You get picked up at the airport and are transported to your totally furnished compound villa and that's that. Likely there will be a fruit basket on the dining room table with some kind of welcoming note. Next day, you'll probably get visited by the local "Welcome Neighbor" gang who'll get you to sign up for countless "activities". They'll all actually speak English!
Meanwhile the contractee is probably still waiting at the airport for someone to pick him up, phone numbers he's been given don't work and he'll have to ask some taxi driver to take him to a hotel....next day, he'll be shoved from hotel to hotel and then told to find his own apartment. His supervisor is probably on "vacation" and no one was even aware that he was arriving when he did.....and that's just the good part of his introduction to his "contractor".
It's very likely that his relationship with his contractor, not to mention his landlord, will be a never ending cascade of mini–crises that have to be attended to all poised to exhaust and enervate the newcomer who was convinced he was going to be an employee of Aramco ...with all the rights, benefits and privileges accruing thereof. After all, weren't the interviews conducted not only in the USA but at ARAMCO HQ in HOUSTON, the big honcho (kahuna) of them all?
So no, "this guy" really did have a beef....he knew what he was talking about. His problem was that he didn't want to believe what he was being told on this thread. When he finally got the contract and digested what he saw, he had enough sense to junk it.
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Last edited by hash on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:35 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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You can come across lots of people in Saudi Arabia who regret the day they chose to go there. Choose your masters with care !
Last edited by scot47 on Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:42 am; edited 1 time in total |
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: erm |
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I've been direct-hire with 2 oil companies and a contractor with 4. The best paid one was as a contractor. Yup, I've had 2 postings with housing, flights, car loans, furniture, school allowances, club membership etc and yes you get treated better on-the-hole.
However, all the stuff his beef was with is so normal with any oil company, I fail to see what he's really worried about. Show me the money, stuff the rest of it. 2 or 3 years there, house paid for. Thicker skin needed. |
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sammysez
Joined: 20 Nov 2016
Posts: 119
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:10 pm Post subject: |
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I think Timmy Topee definitely has his points. For anyone to say, "IDK what you're talking about" does not come across as accurate.
If you're doing the same work, then why are you not being compensated the same? Why is one group designated as the B-team? Second String? The Rescue Squad?
That definitely sets up inconsistencies.
Personally, I didn't care for the fact ARAMCO decided not to pay for housing, therefore you're totally isolated anywhere in the city, with any kind of landlord and/or neighbors.
What about SAFETY??
I know hermits that enjoy the total isolation, but then no social whatsoever.
Also, if ARAMCO isn't willing to pay for housing, you've got to figure out where to live in a foreign culture and deposits etc. plus go find furniture, just ridiculous that they couldn't put people on a compound.
Yes, it's a lot of money, as it gets repeated over and over, which seems to be the carrot in front of the donkey... But, I think ARAMCO needs to do better with this offer.
Last edited by sammysez on Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:40 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| hash wrote: |
| Contractors, apparently, very seldom include housing as part of THEIR deal.....you have to find it yourself, furnish it, turn on utilities and so forth. |
Not only do contracted teachers not get housing, they have to wipe their own bums too, incredibly.
| hash wrote: |
| You usually have to be transported to and from work, usually a long (and perilous) distance and there are few benefits. |
wrong. Absolutely wrong. Never long distance and you get to and from work as you want to. Some of us are rumoured to have enough money to own a car which we drive ourselves.
| hash wrote: |
| [Aramcons] get picked up at the airport |
yep, so do contracted teachers.
| hash wrote: |
| They'll all actually speak English! |
everyone I've ever dealt with speaks English
| hash wrote: |
| Meanwhile the contractee is probably still waiting at the airport for someone to pick him up, phone numbers he's been given don't work and he'll have to ask some taxi driver to take him to a hotel.... |
nope, nope, nope. Never happened to a single teacher I've ever worked with. I was not only picked up but given a SIM card and an envelope with a salary advance and a pack full of info minutes upon sitting in the back of the air conditioned land cruiser that met me at the airport.
| hash wrote: |
| next day, he'll be shoved from hotel to hotel and then told to find his own apartment. |
I had 10 days hotel accommodation to find a place. If you can't find an apartment in ten days, stay at home with yer mum.
| hash wrote: |
| His supervisor is probably on "vacation" and no one was even aware that he was arriving when he did |
Direct hires and contracted teachers have the same supervisors.
| hash wrote: |
| It's very likely that his relationship with his contractor, not to mention his landlord, will be a never ending cascade of mini–crises that have to be attended to |
there are stories out there, but the only crises I've actually experienced were caused not by my contracting company but by SA themselves.
| hash wrote: |
| all poised to exhaust and enervate the newcomer who was convinced he was going to be an employee of Aramco ...with all the rights, benefits and privileges accruing thereof |
if anyone applies for the job thinking they are going to work for SA, they are quite simply illiterate.
| hash wrote: |
| So no, "this guy" really did have a beef....he knew what he was talking about. His problem was that he didn't want to believe what he was being told on this thread. |
Much like hash, he hasn't got a clue. Those of us who actually do the job know what we're talking about. You won't be the first who chooses not to believe us.
| hash wrote: |
| he had enough sense to junk it. |
because he wouldn't have lasted five mins pining for his gated community living up the road. Plenty of us last for decades in this job. If you can't stand the salary, stay out of the desert.  |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Take it or leave it, sure. |
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| hash wrote: |
| There is no 2–tiered system at play here. What there is is two totally different categories of employees.....One consists of full–fledged K–12 certified teachers... |
I think you are confusing two different settings. There is a two-tiered system at play in the TEFL world that is the standard Industrial Training Center. There are a few direct hire teachers that make up the Saudi Aramco ESP workforce, maybe 5%. The rest are teachers working for contracting companies like JAL, Haka, Al Hoty, SRACO, etc. They get different pay and benefits but do the same job.
The K-12 thing you are talking about has nothing to do with EFL or industrial training. That's regular school for Aramco employee children, not ESP. |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| sammysez wrote: |
| If you're doing the same work, then why are you not being compensated the same? |
you've obviously never worked in the Middle East before. Everyone, everywhere in the Middle East is on a different package. Everyone, even those who are directly hired by companies like Aramco. They pay the Filipino direct hire guy in my office less than I get even though he's a direct hire and I'm not because he has a Filipino passport and I have a British passport. That's just life in the ME. he has to buy a retirement place in Manila. I have to buy one in London so it makes some kind of sense. But if that gets to you then no job in the ME is going to be your thing.
| sammysez wrote: |
| you're totally isolated anywhere in the city, with any kind of landlord and/or neighbors. |
erm... that's the same in any city anywhere in the world. That's what immigrants do everywhere. Again, if that's not your thing, don't leave your home culture.
| sammysez wrote: |
| What about SAFETY?? |
I've been to nearly 100 countries and lived overseas in ten countries for the last 40 years. Apart from the traffic, Saudi Arabia is one of the safest countries you can live in.
| sammysez wrote: |
| you've got to figure out where to live in a foreign culture and deposits etc. plus go find furniture, |
That is what immigrants have done for centuries. Furnished apartments are everywhere. Very easy to rent them. You can get an unfurnished one and get your own stuff once you've been here a year or so and know how to do it. If you don't want to do all this, why emigrate? Stay in your home country.
| sammysez wrote: |
| just ridiculous that they couldn't put people on a compound. |
Even direct hires don't get put on compounds. Only direct hire US citizens (which I assume you are) get guaranteed housing on compounds. They simply don't have the housing capacity to put everyone there. Even those US citizens might be a 90 minute bus ride from work because they are on a compound in another city. In that respect, I was much better off in my IKEA furnished apartment 10 mins drive down the road than they were.
There is a reality which is that this is a typical teaching job in the Middle East. It comes with very much the same hassles that any TEFL teacher would experience in many countries in terms of learning how to live in a foreign culture and all the same hassles that working anywhere in industrial training has anywhere in the ME. Direct hire or not, you've still got a steep cultural learning curve in the classroom.
You don't come to SA for the quality of life. You go elsewhere for that. You come here for the money and, for that, this job is still okay. It's not as good as it was when I arrived four years ago in terms of money, but things have improved a great deal in terms of the day to day teaching in those four years so things are equally balanced overall.
SA is not for those starting out in living overseas though so if you can't take what it looks like in this thread, you are probably going to fare better elsewhere. |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 8:36 pm Post subject: Re: Take it or leave it, sure. |
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| timmytopee wrote: |
| I would eventually grow bitter. Life is too short. |
It takes a lot of wisdom to not only know that about yourself but also be man enough to act on it. If you know this know, you will undoubtedly feel conflicted here and, as you say, grow bitter.
I hope Turkey works out really well for you and you don't spend a day ever regretting your decision. |
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hash
Joined: 17 Dec 2014
Posts: 456
Location: Wadi Jinn
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:02 pm Post subject: Re: erm |
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| sicklyman wrote: |
| ......if anyone applies for the job thinking they are going to work for SA (Saudi Aramco), they are quite simply illiterate. |
Really? Illiterate? I don't see how you can say that. Take a look at one of the ads that is still floating around.
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=43480
Now I don't know what was "discussed" at the interviews and if it was made clear to the applicants at that point that they would not actually BE ARAMCO employees but simply contractees working ON the premises of ARAMCO. (Note: I'm using the term ARAMCO because that's what the ad uses).
But clearly the ad at the very least implies ("suggests" is probably a better word here) that the applicant will be an ARAMCO employee. It uses the term ARAMCO in blazing neon at least a couple of times in bold and super large font. It is meant to bedazzle the applicant, especially newbies, and it evidently works. There is no indication whatsoever that a contractor is involved in any of this. To the newbie, assuming he's offered a contract, ARAMCO will manifestly be his new employer.
How is a newbie supposed to know that the name of the POSTER of the ad plus his gmail address are red flags, signifying an outside ARAMCO entity at work here that he should enquire about?
The fact that the interviews were held in the UNITED STATES in HOUSTON at ARAMCO's HQ was the clincher. The applicant is convinced he has found the Golden Fleece. He has swallowed the bait......... hook, line and sinker. Welcome to my world.
Then, the actual contracts arrive and.........
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Note:
The ad has another misleading statement. If an applicant is hired and starts earning the maximum salary quoted ($114,000), then his salary....or part of it...is not tax free at all.
In fact, the tax exclusion applies to wages up to $101,300 for 2016. That means any salary above that limit is taxed.......and at a much higher rate. In this case, the employee would have $12,700 of his earnings taxed heavily. Just thought I'd point this out.
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nomad soul
Joined: 31 Jan 2010
Posts: 11454
Location: The real world
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: |
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| hash wrote: |
Take a look at one of the ads that is still floating around.
http://www.eslcafe.com/joblist/index.cgi?read=43480
But clearly the ad at the very least implies ("suggests" is probably a better word here) that the applicant will be an ARAMCO employee. It uses the term ARAMCO in blazing neon at least a couple of times in bold and super large font. It is meant to bedazzle the applicant, especially newbies, and it evidently works. There is no indication whatsoever that a contractor is involved in any of this. To the newbie, assuming he's offered a contract, ARAMCO will manifestly be his new employer.
How is a newbie supposed to know that the name of the POSTER of the ad plus his gmail address are red flags, signifying an outside ARAMCO entity at work here that he should enquire about? |
Frankly, an astute newbie job seeker would see that gmail address and general job ad as a red flag. He would then either 1) go directly to Aramco's website and see there are zero ESL/English job postings; or 2) do an Internet search using Aramco Saudi esl english jobs and realize ESL/English postings are only by recruiting agencies or contracting companies. Alternately, he'd ask on this forum.
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dragonpiwo
Joined: 04 Mar 2013
Posts: 1650
Location: Berlin
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:38 am Post subject: erm |
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Well now everyone knows. 90% of the jobs with Aramco are as a contractor. However, it's still a bloody good job.
Reading between the lines, I'd say Saudi/the Gulf isn't the place for several people on this thread.
Know this: The Gulf is full of lying, cheating, incompetent employers. In fact, ELT as a whole is full of them. In oil companies EFL teachers are so far down the pecking order, it's not even worth thinking about. Sensible people do it for the money out here because a lot of things are SNAFU. |
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sicklyman
Joined: 02 Feb 2013
Posts: 930
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| Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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| nomad soul wrote: |
| ... common sense... |
thanks for typing for me nomad 
In any case, the ad is a lie. It says "international schools" and yet the description of the work/quals clashes with that, perhaps leading to some of the confusion earlier on this thread about Saudi Aramco international schools and Saudi Aramco Industrial Training Centers. |
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