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Cuyp
Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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 Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:37 am Post subject: Z Visa for non-natives |
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Hi Guys!
I have a question...
A law was passed in 2017 which allows employment of only native speakers as ESL teachers.
As I'm non-native and out of luck in that sense, I tried to figure out what is, actually, the deal.
There are people who recently got their Z visa but they are not native speakers(Latvia and India). There are job ads saying that they can employ only natives because of migration laws. And there is everything in between those two ends of Z visa story.
From what I gathered, seems that the law is not equally enforced in all provinces and as China is a gigantic country it will probably stay like that for a while. My Indian acquaintance told me that, on his Z visa, there is no mention of the exact job he is doing(ESL teaching). Hence, there is this obvious contradiction- you can get the Z visa as non-native (in application paperwork they probably say that you are gonna work as "English language advisor" or some similar BS) but you are not supposed to teach English.
I mean, who is going to enforce the law? Apparently local governments thru raids. But will it ever happen? And if you have Z visa and other needed documents it is not like you are working on a tourist visa, like many did and still do.It is more like a gray area for now(apparently), rather than something really illegal.
I find this whole thing very vague and confusing, Therefore, I wanted to see if some of you have recent first-hand experience with the matter...??
Any input is appreciated! |
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Kalkstein
Joined: 25 Aug 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:31 am Post subject: |
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| Cuyp wrote: |
Hi Guys!
I have a question...
A law was passed in 2017 which allows employment of only native speakers as ESL teachers.
As I'm non-native and out of luck in that sense, I tried to figure out what is, actually, the deal.
There are people who recently got their Z visa but they are not native speakers(Latvia and India). There are job ads saying that they can employ only natives because of migration laws. And there is everything in between those two ends of Z visa story.
From what I gathered, seems that the law is not equally enforced in all provinces and as China is a gigantic country it will probably stay like that for a while. My Indian acquaintance told me that, on his Z visa, there is no mention of the exact job he is doing(ESL teaching). Hence, there is this obvious contradiction- you can get the Z visa as non-native (in application paperwork they probably say that you are gonna work as "English language advisor" or some similar BS) but you are not supposed to teach English.
I mean, who is going to enforce the law? Apparently local governments thru raids. But will it ever happen? And if you have Z visa and other needed documents it is not like you are working on a tourist visa, like many did and still do.It is more like a gray area for now(apparently), rather than something really illegal.
I find this whole thing very vague and confusing, Therefore, I wanted to see if some of you have recent first-hand experience with the matter...??
Any input is appreciated! |
It's really not confusing or a gray area, it's a legal requirement now. You have to be a native to teach English. Enforcement is another issue but you won't get a Z visa in my province without being a native. I've seen quite a lot of people lose their jobs because of this. Also teaching what you are suggesting with hiring under a different job title is also illegal, I've not seen anyone caught out by it as of yet but it's risky and a lot of the legitimate schools just don't do it because of this.
The government enforce laws pretty strictly here, I don't know about you but I feel the situation is moving towards more control and oversight, not less.. I've actually witnessed a raid in which one teacher working on an L visa was sent home. I don't know if they'd do anything to you as long as you're working on a Z visa... maybe but it depends on a lot of factors. I still wouldn't do it myself though given the fact there are other countries you can work in as a NNS such as Japan. |
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Cuyp
Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Kalkstein wrote: |
It's really not confusing or a gray area, it's a legal requirement now. |
I'm saying it is a gray area because non natives still do get Z visas and jobs in some(less popular) provinces. Apparently, it is up to a local government will they enforce the law or not. |
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thechangling
Joined: 11 Apr 2013
Posts: 276
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| Posted: Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Apparently there is another category or exemption which allows for non natives that have completed a degree in an English speaking country to teach in China. |
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Heinrich_Reich
Joined: 31 Jan 2018
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:14 am Post subject: |
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| Cuyp wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
It's really not confusing or a gray area, it's a legal requirement now. |
I'm saying it is a gray area because non natives still do get Z visas and jobs in some(less popular) provinces. Apparently, it is up to a local government will they enforce the law or not. |
I read on a site that the Z visa no longer exists. Now it is A, B, and C visa?
I also heard Filipinos are banned. But they are native English speakers!
What I am curious about is needing a degree. Seen lots of jobs on here say "no degree necessary". I assume that means if you already hold some status? Most E. Asian countries do not require a degree for teaching conversational English... |
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Blistering Zanazilz
Joined: 06 Jan 2018
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| You're uninformed, on just about everything in that post. |
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Cuyp
Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:39 am Post subject: |
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| thechangling wrote: |
| Apparently there is another category or exemption which allows for non natives that have completed a degree in an English speaking country to teach in China. |
Yeah, i've heard that too. But it is also vague. I did my BA in Malaysia, in English language. Malaysia is, in a way, native speaking country-a courtesy of British empire.
I might try to play this card to get my Z visa.
| Heinrich_Reich wrote: |
| What I am curious about is needing a degree. |
When it come to a degree, just check ads- most are asking for one. |
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Kalkstein
Joined: 25 Aug 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Cuyp wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
It's really not confusing or a gray area, it's a legal requirement now. |
I'm saying it is a gray area because non natives still do get Z visas and jobs in some(less popular) provinces. Apparently, it is up to a local government will they enforce the law or not. |
I'm in a less popular province, no non-natives get visas here. The only non-natives I know who get visas are ones that flout the rules such as working illegally teaching English while their work permit says something different. I'd expect these edge case scenarios to get less common with more government oversight.
| thechangling wrote: |
| Apparently there is another category or exemption which allows for non natives that have completed a degree in an English speaking country to teach in China. |
I'd heard this also and enquired about it, not possible where I am located. You need the passport.
| Heinrich_Reich wrote: |
| Cuyp wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
It's really not confusing or a gray area, it's a legal requirement now. |
I'm saying it is a gray area because non natives still do get Z visas and jobs in some(less popular) provinces. Apparently, it is up to a local government will they enforce the law or not. |
What I am curious about is needing a degree. Seen lots of jobs on here say "no degree necessary". I assume that means if you already hold some status? Most E. Asian countries do not require a degree for teaching conversational English... |
The degree is absolutely mandatory also, the application is slightly different for teaching ESL. You don't need two years experience as a TEFL certificate waives this.
| Cuyp wrote: |
Yeah, i've heard that too. But it is also vague. I did my BA in Malaysia, in English language. Malaysia is, in a way, native speaking country-a courtesy of British empire.
I might try to play this card to get my Z visa.
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You won't get a Z visa without a passport from; USA, Canada, The UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Not without doing your employer doing something illegal, I guarantee it. |
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scot47
Joined: 10 Jan 2003
Posts: 15343
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| How is "native-speaker" defined ? By passport ? |
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Cuyp
Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kalkstein wrote: |
| You won't get a Z visa without a passport from; USA, Canada, The UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Not without doing your employer doing something illegal, I guarantee it. |
That is probably the case.Those two people i mentioned got their Z visa recently, although they are holders of Latvian and Indian passport.
What exactly was cooked-up i don't know. Probably the visa related paperwork says that they are working as "English language consultants" or something similar.
When i told my Chinese friend about this thing with the law she told me "Don't worry, if they want to hire you, they will find the way to do so."
In that context, it is one of the things i've learned during my years in Asia- laws can be very flexible and bribes go a long way. Never been to China but i doubt there's any difference.
| scot47 wrote: |
| How is "native-speaker" defined ? By passport ? |
Yeah, obviously. But it is a bit naive(on government's side) to think that the demand will meet the supply. Besides that, will local governments all over China enforce the law in order to prevent "English language consultants" working as English teachers?How many raids, manpower,resources and money are needed for that...?Not to say they don't have all of it, but will it be a priority?
Dunno. Me thinks this law and it's concept are standing on flimsy feets. |
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Kalkstein
Joined: 25 Aug 2016
Posts: 80
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Cuyp wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
| You won't get a Z visa without a passport from; USA, Canada, The UK, Ireland, Australia, New Zealand or South Africa. Not without doing your employer doing something illegal, I guarantee it. |
That is probably the case.Those two people i mentioned got their Z visa recently, although they are holders of Latvian and Indian passport.
What exactly was cooked-up i don't know. Probably the visa related paperwork says that they are working as "English language consultants" or something similar.
When i told my Chinese friend about this thing with the law she told me "Don't worry, if they want to hire you, they will find the way to do so."
In that context, it is one of the things i've learned during my years in Asia- laws can be very flexible and bribes go a long way. Never been to China but i doubt there's any difference.
| scot47 wrote: |
| How is "native-speaker" defined ? By passport ? |
Yeah, obviously. But it is a bit naive(on government's side) to think that the demand will meet the supply. Besides that, will local governments all over China enforce the law in order to prevent "English language consultants" working as English teachers?How many raids, manpower,resources and money are needed for that...?Not to say they don't have all of it, but will it be a priority?
Dunno. Me thinks this law and it's concept are standing on flimsy feets. |
Not with Xi Jinping's anti-corruption campaign, I've seen at least 3 excellent teachers lose their job because they can no longer be hired. I don't even see advertisements anymore for non-natives other than at training centres and usually on L visas with 50% salary. I've seen people detained in person for violating visa laws, China is a lot different to the countries you mentioned because there's a lot more government involvement. Foreigners are being used as scapegoats right now. What you mentioned was true a decade ago but now the government is extremely involved, it's just not that common anymore.
I've also seen schools threaten people working illegally because they're at far less risk than the teachers themselves. Why would legitimate institutes pay a bribe to hire someone illegally when they can just up their salary to get someone who meets the requirements? I've already had discussions about this with our directors, it's impossible to hire any non-native speaker because we get caught we can potentially lose our license to hire foreigners and all the benefits it brings (including being able to enroll foreign students and have partnerships with foreign institutes).
As for raids. They happen, I've witnessed them. Usually it's because a teacher or someone outside reports that foreigner which is quite common in a government that encourages snitching on each other. As a foreigner you stick out and at some point you will be questioned. Currently I'd say it's unlikely you will get found out if you're working on a falsified Z visa but ten years ago I would have said the same thing about working on an L visa. These days you're going to get found out quite quickly if you're on an L visa, so I'm expecting even stricter control in the near future.
To give you an example, every year the PSBs in my province round up every single foreigner who has a residence permit. They check that the passport, work permit and details are all correct. What happens if they decide to suddenly check on all non-natives working in education institutes? I don't think it would take as much manpower as you think. There's not that many non-natives working as teachers who have z visas. I'd say this is a real possibility given the track record here that they'll soon figure it out this and take appropriate measures to stop it in the near future.
Stupid rule or not (and it is a stupid rule), you're underestimating the lengths China will go to uphold its laws. |
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twowheel
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 753
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| Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Kalkstein wrote: |
| To give you an example, every year the PSBs in my province round up every single foreigner who has a residence permit. They check that the passport, work permit and details are all correct. |
I'm glad I'm not living and working in that province
twowheel |
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max71081
Joined: 05 Aug 2015
Posts: 125
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 am Post subject: |
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| twowheel wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
| To give you an example, every year the PSBs in my province round up every single foreigner who has a residence permit. They check that the passport, work permit and details are all correct. |
I'm glad I'm not living and working in that province
twowheel |
where would that be? |
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twowheel
Joined: 03 Jul 2015
Posts: 753
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| max71081 wrote: |
| twowheel wrote: |
| Kalkstein wrote: |
| To give you an example, every year the PSBs in my province round up every single foreigner who has a residence permit. They check that the passport, work permit and details are all correct. |
I'm glad I'm not living and working in that province
twowheel |
where would that be? |
Not sure, but glad I am not there. I am in Beijing. Perhaps this happens in the capital as well--I don't really know.
This is a question for Kalkstein.
twowheel |
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Cuyp
Joined: 02 Jan 2018
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:39 am Post subject: |
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I'm looking into Yunnan, would be lovely to get a job there. Now i'm not sure what to do. I mean, i'll give it a shoot and if it works i'll take my chances.
I just did my CELTA and China seems the best place for what i need to do- save up some $$$
Other places like Vietnam and Thailand doesn't seem to be as lucrative ESL markets as China is. |
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