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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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 Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 6:33 pm Post subject: a final word |
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and lastly (sorry these thing keep coming to me as soon as i finish one thought):
if you think about the history of english language you will find that the majority of words in modern English come from foreign, not Old English roots. In fact, only about one sixth of the known Old English words have descendants surviving today. Furthermore, Old English itself didnt develop in a vacuum - its a *beep* thief just like all other languages. |
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zulu
Joined: 07 May 2003
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed May 07, 2003 8:59 pm Post subject: how's your Chinese? |
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| I don't know about you but mine is pretty awful. I could study for 20 years and it would still be pretty awful. But it does help me communicate a little better with Chinese people which is why I don't just give up and stick with English. To be critical of Chinglish is, imho, counterproductive because it's better than no English at all. |
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chinasyndrome
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: In the clutches of the Red Dragon. Erm...China
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 1:10 am Post subject: |
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What ho, chaps!
I thought Billy was talking metaphorically about Fortune 500 vs wetback labour. Dan makes a good point about where the line is. I guess that depends on where each student sees their life going and how central English is to their goals.
English is creeping into the Chinese language anyway. Last night on CCTV9 a doctor (microbiologist, I think) was talking about China's CDC, as well as DNA and RNA. Because China's not as technically developed as some other countries, and wasn't the discoverer or developer, (although they made it sound like they were  ) there's no words they can use in their own language for things such as these. Some HK people use a strange but charming mixture of Cantonese and English.
The level of English needed is probably situational as well as locational. Lots of people in my 'hometown' are rich and want to 'do the business'  with foreigners or live in other countries. Their RMB won't save them if their English is rubbish.
Where's the benchmark? Stuffed if I know. A Chinese might have memorized the dictionary but have s*** pronunciation, and a native speaking child of 5 might have 250 words but you know where they're going with ideas.
Oops! Goota have a 'work break' now. I'll 'do a dan' and come back later.
Cheers! |
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Billy
Joined: 24 Feb 2003
Posts: 10
Location: Guangzhou, China
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 2:35 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, ChinaSyndrome.
Dan stated:
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| not only should we accept chinglish and other L2 dialects, we should come see them as contributing to and enriching the English language. the best thing about english is its flexibility and ever-changing quality. the more we maintain negative attitudes about chinglish, spanglish, inglish, etc. the less likely people who speak these english dialects will accept them themselves and, conversely, the more we dscourage these dialects the more hegemic and 'undemocratic' we become. languages the world over are tied to ideas of power, status and agenda. english still has a bad reputation from colonial times; however, we are now in a position to spin past mistakes into future gains by promoting english growth and CHANGE. |
Dan, why shouldn't we strongly encourage China to export vast numbers of Chinglish experts to the West to teach? I mean, if we are all singing from the same sheet of music, so to speak, we can all communicate with greater precision and fluency and that, after all, is what the whole concept of language is about, no? As an additional benefit, we would become more democratic and less hegemonic because, after all, many times concepts such as these, attributed to others, are the result of misunderstandings or barriers in language / communication.
Can you provide empirical evidence that the English language has a bad reputation? If you mean English-speaking people, few could offer any evidence to the contrary. However, an indictment of English as a language, I'm afraid, has no basis in history or in fact. The difference between the two concepts is not at all insignificant.
Arioch stated:
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| English is only important when dealing with foreigners..and in getting into graduate school |
Arioch, I am not sure where you are going with that statement. Please forgive me if I misunderstood.
I think English is important in China because, as a whole, China considers it important. Why they consider it important is something I can only guesstimate. Can anybody deny that the overwhelming majority of China's most significant trading partners - their economic life support system - are English speaking countries?
How many would object to the statement that, generally, the best employment opportunities for Chinese graduates are found in foreign-invested enterprises? Employment, and more so advancement, in these companies is largely determined by language abilities.
Judging from record numbers of candidates for the TOEFL, GRE, GMAT, IELTS ... , and long lines at Western nation consulates, a very significant number of Chinese people are contemplating going to graduate school abroad. I'm not sure about anybody else's university, but at mine, intelligence and hard work aside, an accurate and intelligible command of English will determine whether or not one will graduate honestly.
Dan stated:
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| i understand your very practical concern about where these people will work, but it is, after all, an attitudinal issue. if a company will not hire a someone who speaks an English dialect different from their own (an intelligible one - i not talking about mutually exclusive ones) then the problem is with the person doing the hiring. it seems to me that this is a form of discrimination, and an unnecessary one at that. of course, if the communication gap is too big to work with, then by all means, don't hire the person. i guess im curious where you draw the line. for me, its one based on communication. anything beyond that is, in my mind, wrong. my English isnt perfect and yet i teach it at an American university. surface level issues that do not hinder communication, ideas, intention, originality and things like that merit very little attention for me. |
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| also: do all people who study english intend on, as you say, "reaching the boardrooms of fortune 500 companies"? probably not. if that were the case, we'd all be out of jobs. furthermore, there are other factors that would prohibit a person from obtaining these jobs than their facility, flair and savvy with the english language. conversely, people can achieve without a firm grasp of english - one neednt look beyond the white house for substantiating these claims. |
Please don't misunderstand me. I don't care where they work or even if they work. They, however, do care very much. Whether it is an attitudinal issue or not, the fact remains that from long ago to far into the foreseeable future, most employment decisions take language fluency and accuracy into consideration. This will not be changed, I'd be willing to bet, in the near future. To think so, in my opinion, is wishful thinking.
My comment about Fortune 500 companies wasn't designed to be taken literally. But on a more realistic tone, your speakers of Spanglish (or Chinglish, or any other mutation resulting from improper learning or teaching) would be hard pressed to get a job at, say, McDonald's drive-thru. Yes, they could flip burgers, but then burgers don't need to communicate with you.
Let's not use the word dialect. Dialect implies many things, not all of which are negative. There are, even within the U.S., many regional dialects. To compare Chinglish with a regional dialect is, although perhaps by strict definition correct, is quite misleading considering the issue at hand. Let's term Chinglish a mutation of a language having standards and rules, as do the vast majority of languages.
It would be extremely naive to believe that Chinglish, as a mutation, does not result in far more serious barriers to communication, ideas, and intention than, does the use of most regional language dialects. Does anybody on this forum not have numerous experiences where the use of Chinglish has resulted in a failure to communicate at some level?
What about this:
English Speaker: I just came back from a trip to Cebu.
Chinglish Speaker: Oh, I have ever been to Cebu.
Result: Total failure to communicate and / or present a coherent idea.
E S: How about your weekend?
C S: I youllally like to study wurd history during my free time.
Result: Communication inhibited to such an extent as to make it extremely difficult to infer intent let alone understand any underlying ideas with accuracy.
E S: Excuse me. Is Mr. Smith in, please?
C S: First, I want to know your name.
Result: Total misunderstanding as to intent, not to mention attitude. Employer's attitudinal issues aside, C S is fired from job.*
We could start a thread with hundreds, if not thousands, of other perfectly valid examples.
As for the White House, it's irrelevant. They communicate as accurately as they intend to. The specialized language used in politics, law, science ... is not even closely related to the issue at hand.
Yes, English evolved. You are totally correct. And yes, communication is the key. But English evolved over a period of time still maintaining some semblance of structure and order. In the vast majority of these evolutionary changes to the language there was a simple adaptation of terms that were currently not able to be expressed otherwise. Chinglish does not fall into this category.
According to Cambridge University, a "very good user" of the English language "has fully operational command of the language with only occasional unsystematic inaccuracies and inappropriacies. Misunderstandings may occur in unfamiliar situations. Handles complex detailed argumentation well."
A speaker of Chinglish does not meet the requirement of this level, let along that of the next higher level -- native speaker.
The native speaker, as defined my Cambridge, would be one who's "speech is fluent, situationally appropriate and fully acceptable in all features although a slight non-intrusive accent may be observed" ... even though "non-systematic errors (as distinguished from intrusive errors) in grammar and vocabulary may occur."
Nobody's English is perfect. Nobody expects it to be. Perfection isn't the issue.
Chinglish is a mutation resulting in a lessened ability to communicate precisely and accurately. We should hardly find inability to communicate effectively, accurately and precisely within a given structured guideline enriching nor should we, as language educators, encourage gross miscommunication.
* About two years ago I went to dinner at a Pizza Hut in China with a good friend of mine, the CEO of then Tricon Global Restaurants, Inc. which owns, among other brands, Pizza Hut. We arrived about fifteen minutes before two other friends who were to join us for dinner. When approached by the waitress, who appeared to speak English well, we explained that we would order in a little while after our friends arrived. Every two minutes she'd return and ask to take our order and we politely explained that our friends had yet to join us. After a total of approximately 15 minutes, the waitress returned yet another time and stated in perfect Chinglish, "You've been here so long. I want to know where your friends are. It's been too long, so I want you to order." A few minutes later she was unemployed. She should've tried making fries.
Or studying English. |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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how do you quote chucks of text on this thing? i hit the 'quote' icon, but the computer only regurgitated to me the most recent post i made...
anyway, i wanted to select billy's idea about attitudes, "facts that remain" and "wishful thinking", particularly the latter. i think that you will find that, indeed, attitudes about the english language (and languages in general) are changing and will probably continue to change. some of this we owe to our old friend, joseph stalin, believe it or not. he was one of the first people (or at least one that people listened to) that said that no language is inherently better/worse, more/less feudal or more/less modern than any other. linguistics have been screaming this for eons, but have been relegated to the nose bleed section on this until somewhat recently. furthermore, in 1858 Alexis de Tocqueville published 'democracy in america' where he discusses, in his opinion, the indeterminate and seemingly wishy-washy nature in which the english language devolved as a result of democracy, whereas today most writers probably embrace the protean quality of english ( i know i do - as a graduate student in english, this flexibility has bailed me out more times than i care to count). and finally, what about recent legal and school board decisions about the use of "black english"? this last example is, of course, highly contested, but if you look at the shift HISTORICALLY lots of progress has been made on this front. after having said all that i have, i suppose i am still somewhat torn. my democratic ideals occassionally conflict with my desire to see and hear people use languages at least conherently, but in the end, i think my principles win out. yes, this is a very complicated issue, and i do understand most of the points made counter to my own on this thread, or at least see them as viable contributions to this sticky issue. |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 1:10 pm Post subject: |
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postscript for chinasyndrome
true, much of this has to do with where each student sees english factoring into their life (to brutually paraphrase you), but equally important - or more so if we want to make progress like i envision it - much of this has to do with what EVERYONE wants in regards to the future of english. i doubt it will go the way that French and other elitist languages have; that is, governments stipulating what rules and changes will be accepted and which ones won't (as im sure you know, the french government has commisioned a group of, uh, well, very french people who see to that the language remains pure and does not allow any outside language influence - if you advertise in english you incure a fine, for example), but reactionary movements are often powerful and, unfortunately, effective. some of the post ive read on this teeter on the brink... anyway, im a functionalist on these matters, and that being said, i bid you adieu |
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chinasyndrome
Joined: 17 Mar 2003
Posts: 673
Location: In the clutches of the Red Dragon. Erm...China
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject: |
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[quote="dan"][quote]how do you quote chunks of text on this thing? i hit the 'quote' icon, but the computer only regurgitated to me the most recent post i made...[/quote]
Don't know, dan!
Okay, left click and hold down on the mouse, running it over the text you want to quote. The background will be dark blue and the characters white. Then click on 'quote' and hey! presto!
I'd planned to 'do a dan' and roll out some ideas later but it's been pretty well covered. Some interesting ideas put out there. Thanks for being interesting guys. Cheers! |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 8:40 pm Post subject: |
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thanks, C.S.
makes perfectly logical sense once someone points it out to you.
and keep the threads coming. |
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J.D.
Guest
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| Posted: Thu May 08, 2003 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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Howzit brudda Dan?
Youually maka none sonce from yous butta dis time I gotta betta idears.
Tanks lotsa. |
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dan
Joined: 20 Mar 2003
Posts: 247
Location: shanghai
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2003 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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| i am, and always will be, leary of people over the age of 16 that still go by their initials |
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J.D.
Guest
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| Posted: Fri May 09, 2003 11:43 pm Post subject: |
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Dan - 2 really bad assumptions:
1. J.D. are initials; and,
2. J.D. is over the age of 16 years.
This forum is for "Students and Teachers." Sometimes it appears to me that some people (I am reluctant to call many of them teachers) using this forum forget that there are students in here with them.
It looks to me like Dave built this sandbox for all to play, not be be insulting and derogatory and particularly not for teachers to set a bad example for students.
But not you Dan. Of course I am not referring to you. Your posts remind me of some of the all time great posts in this forum. In fact, if we had a post hall of fame, you may be one of its first inductees. Please - Please - Please keep posting Dan. I am now addicted and just do not think I can survive without my daily dose of Dan! I think maybe you have even cured my longing for the departed NOYB, Dragon and MW.
NOT! |
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chastenosferatu
Joined: 03 May 2003
Posts: 50
Location: Anshan, China (USA)
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| Posted: Sat May 10, 2003 7:07 am Post subject: Attitudinal |
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Is "attitudinal" a word? Or how about "hegemic"? These sound more like "Bushisms".
Dan after reading your posts and discovering that you are teacher of English at an American university, I must admit it has answered some long-standing questions. Why do the university graduates I hire seem unable to read and write correctly in their own language? I find it hard to believe you are really a teacher but hey I'm amazed at some of the FE's here in China too so I guess things are tough all over finding good help.
And Dan have you been to China, have you experienced first-hand what Chinglish is? If not, I would say you should come post-haste, so that then you may speak from whereof you truly know. Otherwise sit back and go back to playing your guitar and singing "Lesbian Seagull". |
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