Job Discussion Forums

[Capergirl]

As many of you know, I'm not afraid of a little controversy. This is actually the second time I have made a thread on this topic but since the demonization of Western females (i.e. Canadian, American, Australian, English, etc.) continues, I will forge ahead.

Western women frequently get a bad rap on this site. Why? It seems that some Western males have a real axe to grind with "us". They have gone to some part of Asia (typically) and have discovered that the local women are everything they had ever looked for 'back home' and didn't find. Let me first tell you that I, for one, am thrilled for you if you have found happiness. It is rare, to be sure. Enjoy it. Now, that being said, I do have a problem with the backlash that often follows. 'Asian women are better than Western women because...' Those of you who have been here for a while know exactly to what I am referring. I'm not jealous of Asian women (or any women, for that matter) and I am certainly not angry. What I am is frustrated by the negative stereotypes I continually read about myself. Yes, myself. As a Western woman, a Canadian, every time one of you makes a generalization about Western women, you are talking about me. You are talking about Denise. You are talking about Lynn. All of us. Do we fit the unflattering stereotypes? No matter how many times we reiterate the fact, some of you still won't accept that we don't. In fact, 99% of the "Western women" that I know, personally, do not fit the stereotypes.

Here are some of the things we repeatedly read about ourselves on this website:

Angry White Chicks
I've met very few truly "angry" people in my life. Those who are have psychological issues. This, of course, is not specific to "white" women. However, if the people you date are frequently "angry", you are either making poor choices or quite possibly there is something that you are doing to provoke a reaction from them. Most Western females I know are very pleasant, have a good sense of humour, and generally get along well with others. I doubt very much that Western women on the whole have a problem with Western men dating Asian women. The attitude some Western men are picking up on is a result of the unkind generalizations that are thrown out about Western women by men with Asian wives or girlfriends. It's not a nice thing at all. You know, had I been single when I lived in Korea and Taiwan, I'd have remained so for the simple fact that there were no Western men there who interested me at all. Are you (Western men) angry? No? Exactly. However, if I were to make unflattering generalizations about Western men in Asia, and you heard the same negative stereotypes over and over again, you'd feel the 'slap in the face' feeling that many Western women feel when they are subjected to them. Can't you just say, "My girlfriend makes me happy"? If not, why not?

Unfeminine
This is a tough one for the simple fact that it is impossible to define 'feminine'. Is it a matter of how one dresses, speaks, or acts? Or is it something deeper than that? I used to believe that femininity was all about how you 'gussied' yourself up. Now I know that femininity is a combination of positive traits, ones which many Western females possess: sensitivity, caring, compassion, strength, spirituality, attentiveness, humour, self-confidence, poise, grace, etc. Feminine is as feminine does.

Ugly
This is always the last-resort low-blow of the flame artist. His arsenal is wiped clean so he comes up with...big surprise...Western women are ugly. Well, like the term 'unfeminine', 'ugly' is hard to define. If we are talking about mere aesthetics, some women meet the conventional 'rules' of beauty and some do not (all women, from all parts of the globe). If we are talking about personality, then once again, some will radiate attractiveness through their words and actions and some will not. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder". Real beauty can't be calculated by the length of your hair or the size of your waistline. It's your overall attractiveness to the world that matters...both inner and outer. No one ethnic, racial, or regional group has a monopoly on beauty. Beauty exists everywhere, in myriad forms.

Feminazi
This 'word' (courtesy of Rush Limbaugh, I believe) has appeared in countless posts. Are we Western females some militant, man-hating group? When I read the term 'feminazi', I envision a woman in full combat gear, ready to rid the world of men and their evil. Most women I know enjoy the company of men immensely. That is, of course, those men who don't spew any of the above nonsense about Western women. It's true that most Western females don't cater to men these days. It's true that we generally feel that we don't need a man to 'complete' us. We are opinionated (but usually not in a barking-dog kind of way), we are strong, we are self-reliant. Are these not good traits to possess? Who wants a partner that is wembly, weak, and completely dependent on their significant other? Some men might find that desirable, but most men seem to be embracing the feminists of today. Equality is a two-way street. You respect us and we respect you. Very few Western women try to own their men and tell them how to live. That's a stereotype that has been given too much air time.

Anyway, that is all I wanted to say at this point in time. Thanks for reading.

[denise]

Well, crap, I had a whole lengthy reply ready to post, and technology got the better of me and erased it. To summarize:

1) Capergirl--you are truly awesome!

2) To all of the men out there who value one group of people over another (in this case, Asian women over Western women)--of course your opinions are valid. Please just remember your audience. You are bashing western women on a site frequented by a number of western women, many of whom, by virtue of their being in this wacky job/profession, do not fit the stereotype.

That's all. Must post quickly before I lose this one too!

d

[Jorik]

I like women - all of them. Hope they like me.

[moonraven]

A fair number of the men on this site are only interested in submissive women. Women who are willing to make them feel like the machos they would like to be, but aren't capable of being. Since most western women don't do that dance, they attack us. Too bad. If they had something in their pants, figuratively and literally speaking, maybe we would be interested in THEM. But who wants a whiner?

[Magoo]

Capergirl: I was about to agree completely with what you say about the idiot crap spewed out about western women, but "wembly, weak and completely dependent"? Moonraven:"Submissive"? I have no problems with western women, at all, especially having been a nurse, but these deprecating comments just go to show that you are being defensive. Why bother? The dikheads who make these comments are either doing it tongue-in-cheek or have issues of their own. You're just restocking their arsenal.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

Asian women are different in bed (and I like it), but I'm not sure I could marry one. The culture gap is just too... wide, weird, I don't know.

I like and admire Western women, though, and I find that they can be just as sexy and feminine as Asian women. Plus it's nice to have a spirited conversation with someone who has opinions and ideas and isn't afraid to express them.

I have to say, I rate Canadian girls very highly - very out there and spirited!

Really, though, when I'm ready to settle down it'll come down to the individual woman, and not her race.

[Capergirl]

Magoo, I hope you are not suggesting that I was saying Asian women are wembly, weak, and dependent. Please don't put words in my mouth. I was saying that being a feminist means not being those things. What makes you think Asian women are not feminists? A feminist is any strong, independent female. Most, if not all, of the Asian women I got to know in Korea and Taiwan certainly fit that bill. On the other hand, "feminazi" is the term that is used on this forum to put a negative spin on something (feminism) that is (IMHO) quite positive in today's world. It is this term, feminazi, that I was speaking out against. Just to be totally clear. Thank you.

[thedude72]

I don't think it is fair to generalize that Asian women are better than Western women or vice versa. It all has to do with personal experience.

I'm sure a lot of the guys who express these negatives thoughts towards Western women have been rejected by them (for whatever reason) and are lashing out as a result. Then they meet a girl in China or Korea and therefore draw the conclusion that Asian women are better.

Personally, I love all women no matter what their country of origin is. Even if they reject me, I don't hold it against them. I just say, NEXT!!

[Atlas]

Capergirl, (May I call you that, or is it Caper woman?) is it that time of the month?

Oh no he didn't!

Seriously, that you should experience personal affront when facing these kinds of stereotypes reveals how even something we read on a forum like this one, with faceless players who may or may not post seriously, can affect us in our real lives. Words are sometimes more powerful than we care to admit. ( I also find it fascinating that so many different views are brought together by our commonality, the English language, which supercedes culture and nation and law. This is the edge of culture, right here, at Dave's ).

Debating virtues and vices based on stereotypes is futile. There is simply no way to corroberate any statement, from "Western women are proud" to "Asian women are submissive" (try that one on a Shanghai girl! That is, after she's married....). In any case there would be so many exceptions. But--if you are talking about the cultural norms, or ideals, that's another matter. Are we talking about people or ideas here?

Please bear in mind that not all men act like they just walked out of an Ally McBeal or Xena Warrior Princess episode! That is, rock star studs, evil studs, or bumbling, fumbling, fawning, short sweethearts. What is it with boosting our self-images only at other sex's expense anyway? Who needs to do that? People who feel insecure, that's who. People who need their differences and scapegoats.

Here's a thought: what if things on TV depicted the sexes and races as basically competent and human, instead of exacerbating our differences? Because as any writer will tell you, story is CONFLICT. Nobody pays to see "The Village of the Happy Nice People."

Anyway, I always love reading the posts from Capes & Co, here at Dave's, this sounds like a windup but I wanted to say something before it got too arduous to sift through. As one man, let me say, a man's desire for women knows no nationality. Be yourself! Those who would judge you don't matter!

BTW, whole theses and books are written on such topics!
I wouldn't hold my breath for satisfying answers!

One last point: in mate selection, here are the most important factors researched by western psychology:

height (Man taller than woman, but not too much)
waist-hip ratio (.7 - a subconscious indicator of child-rearing potential?)
age (man older than woman)
- kindness (for both sexes)
- intelligence (both of these indicated through conversation, not sex, etc).
money (i.e., resourcefulness for men--can't buy love but can inhibit it)
Youth (for women--again, childbirthing potential).

This is an evolutionary psychology perspective.
This issue could be as much about height as it is about personality or culture. Just a thought.

[jeddahteacher]

The below is from an uncensored email which I received this week from EU citizen:

"What will happen is simple: White men in Europe
will more or less welcome the Islamisation of
Europe as it will lead to putting women back in
their place.

I recently heard of a young Moslem tobacconist
telling off a white female for dressing so
indecently. My friend who overheard the exchange,
and all I have told it to, are quite pleased
about it. We are sick and tired of lefty sluts
(a group that includes most white women nowadays)
telling us we are evil racist macho pigs while
walking around dressed and talking like Miami
Vice whores."

[denise]

Jeddahteacher--

Very interesting. Care to analyze that email for us?

d

[dmb]

Jeddahteacher, that certainly isn't true for Muslim women in Istanbul.
I am with the previous posters who said women are cool. All women, no matter what race.

[nolefan]

call me stupid if you will but I was under the impression that this thread was in SUPPORT of so called "western women" not another occasion to bash them......

[tarzaninchina]

I'll leave the metaphorical interpretation of the subject heading of my reply to yourselves.

Yes, personalities have a huge impact. You've got yourself and what you need/want in a partner. Then you've got what your personality seems to define partner as.

In general terms, yes there are differences that culture does impose. There is the overly-traditional and somewhat naive idea of Chinese girls (can't call them women without getting dirty looks if you whaven't realized). A similar thing can be said about western girls and the whole bitchy version of Britney Spears thing they are accused of being.

People choose to uphold stereotypes, either in simple recognition or all-out living by them. Culture influences the latter, personal beliefs dictate whether or not you're into the former.

While it may be pertinent not to ignore those stereotypes, considering too many people exhibit a few points of them usually, choosing those gap-unfilled stereotypes as a personal belief system...will undoubtedly cause you to miss out on stuff in life. This would include the perception of either sex.

While I'm usually for a neutral balance, I'll have to side with the intelligent western gal who started this thread and say that some dudes on this site better watch their personalities even if only for themselves.

[jeddahteacher]

http://www.heretical.com/sheppard/bigsis.html