Job Discussion Forums

[blue jay]

Hi,

I've been reading the topics posted on the discussion forum for the past 3 years & finally got up the courage to register and post my first topic.

I wish it could be more ESL teaching related however..

I taught ESL in Japan 3 times and became good friends with many Japanese women. It seems to me like I am in the minority somehow.

I'd like to hear more from western women teaching in Japan about their experiences with forming friendships with Japanese women.

My experiences are such:

I made friends with Japanese women of all ages: early 20's, mid 20's, early 30's, late 30's and in their 50's & 60's.

I especially enjoyed the friendships I had with the older women, they taught me so much. Their kindness towards me I'll always cherish.
I found them to be warm, friendly and often full of great humour.

I also enjoyed spending time with the younger Japanese women who introduced me to izakayas, karaoke, Japanese festivals, and shopping!

I really appreciate the experience of having had a Japanese roommate who took me to visit her family in Shikoku.

All in all, it was a very positive experience and I wanted to share these experiences in hopes that other western women in Japan have had the same great fortune as I did.

This is not to say everything was alway hunky-dory..I had my share of negative experiences with Japanese women. But for the most part it was very positive for me.

blue jay (a canadian gal who once lived in japan..)

[J.]

You're absolutely right, blue jay. The women I've really gotten to know here are wonderful. They have been kind, funny, warm and go out of their way to make you feel comfortable. There have been so many good experiences and I have really grown to respect the women here. Especially older women seem to be comfortable with themselves enough to just be themselves. There's nothing weak about these women either; they are some of the strongest physically and mentally in the world. In fact, when times get tough and home seems far away, it is these wonderful students that make my time here so worthwhile. And, yes, before I get jumped on, men students are great too, but somehow it just seems easier and more relaxed getting to know the women.

[Lynn]

I also made many great friendships with Japanese women. I, too, made a special bond with the older women. I spoke candidly of love, relationships and life. Of course I had fun with the gals my own age, too. Izakayas, karoake and shopping...yup, I did all that, too.

If I had to name five of my closest female friends, two of them would be my Japanese friends.

[Celeste]

I have a few Japanese women friends. Most of them are the wives and girlfriends of my husband's foreign friends. We enjoy each other's company and we don't seem to have too much trouble comunicating. Most of them speak English very well, except for one, and I don't speak Japanese fluently yet (I am studying for the 3kyu these days) so our conversations are a bit stilted at times, but we like each other and are both trying really hard. None of these women that I know is a pushover to their western spouse/boyfriend either. With one or two of them, I have had long conversations about what they will do if they move to their husband's home country. (It's scary for them. Kind of like it was scary for me the first time I followed my husband abroad to teach EFL).

I have befriended a few of the women teachers that I work with also. That is usually a different kind of relationship for me. Most of these women are 10 to 20 years older than I am, so they are a bit mothery with me, and they like to take me out drinking and they like to talk about their foriegn travels. With these women, we communicate in English and Japanese, but the conversation never seems difficult, because their confidence in their broken English is pretty good, and they are always trying to help me improve my Japanese as well.

To be honest, the only place I've come across giggly Japanese girls are high school and university students on the subway in the morning or the girls who work in the shops I frequent. I probably wouldn't make friends with those people in Canada either.

I have really found it easier to make women friends in Japan than I did in Korea. The women here are a lot more independent from their families and seem to have much more varied interests and hobbies. Or perhaps it is just because I am older now and am associating with women who are older also.

[blue jay]

Hi J, Lynn & Celeste,

Thank you for responding so quickly to my topic about friendships with Japanese women. It's good to hear that others have shared my positive experiences. Celeste, I can relate to what you wrote about making friends with Japanese female teachers at work.

My first experience teaching English in Japan, I was fortunate to befriend a Japanese woman in her 50's who was a wonderful teacher. She not only taught part-time at the school but had a large number of private students that she tutored. She was very motherly towards me as well, but she always told me to stand up for myself, to be strong, and was definately no pushover to her husband or son. In fact I think she taught a great deal in being assertive while still showing kindness to others.

When I taught at another school in Japan, there were a large number of Japanese English Grammar teachers, the majority of them were women. I found most of them to be very strong, independent career-minded women. In fact one of them wanted to pursue a Master's in Women Studies in Australia.

That was something I noticed a great deal, the number of Japanese women who worked either as English teachers, staff or as Managers at various English Language Schools. I taught at 4 different schools and at all 4 of them the manager was a Japanese woman! It was interesting to see that 2 of them managed their schools in the way that many western men criticize western women as being, one was called the "Dragon Lady".
The other 2 were equally assertive but came off in a kinder light. (I don't know if I explained that well..)

I came across some giggly high schools girls too, which was a shame, because when I taught many junior high or elementary school age girls they came across as more in touch with their selves. (If you read Carol Gilligan's books she describes how younger girls are more in touch with their true selves (voices) and then lose this self-confidence as they get older) I think the giggly Japanese girl is often the "stereotype".

J, I agree with what you wrote about Japanese women being strong both mentally and physically then they are credited for. One of my Japanese female friends bought her own apt. which is the size of most apt.'s in North America! She renovated it to her taste and spent her money on it. Many of my other Japanese female friends told it was unusual for a woman to buy her own apt. and spend her money on it. She also worked independently and was quite strong in expressing her opinions and worked exceptionally hard. She lived in Australia for 3 years and is fluent in English. I was constanly amazed at her energy and stamina!

Lynn, I liked what you wrote about talking about love, relationships and life with your Japanese female friends. I too spoke about those things with my friends. I found them to be very similiar to me in how they felt about finding love, dealing with relationship issues and what dreams they had for their lives. It was really was a "special bond" as you stated.

Anyways. I'm glad to hear what you all have written and shared and look forward to hearing more accounts.

Thanks for your replys!
blue jay

Ps I'm still new at this posting messages stuff so I think I'm writing a lot like I'm responding to e-mails!

[TokyoLiz]

Wow, I'm so happy to read that what you all have said about friendship!

I, too, count Japanese women friends amongst my best friends. We help each other through rough bits and celebrate the good bits. One friend is in her 20s and speaks English fluently, and the other is in her 40s and we speak mostly Japanese. I'm in my early 30s.

Then there are a few wonderful gals, both older than me, who I see at a martial arts dojo I attend weekly. That's all the time we have to talk and share, but it's really awesome. We talk about Things That Matter - life goals, relationships and our martial training.

I also get along well with my foreign guy friends' Japanese partners. The guys have smart, funny, energetic girlfriends/wives. They're fun to hang out with.

I thought about what Celeste said and I quite agree. I wouldn't hang out with giggly people at home and I wouldn't find them interesting here, either. I'm lucky to have found really cool women friends here who would get along well with my friends from my hometown.

[6810]

I do apologise, rolling in here as a boy. I would however like to present another facet of friendship between foreigners and Japanese women.

Back home in Australia, my friendships are pretty evenly split between men and women. Perhaps my closest friends are men, but I am also quite close to my women friends as well...

So earlier this year, my Japanese partner and I married and came to Japan. Now certainly, I have befriended her mother, an adorable cousin (and her three boys...) and a very groovy aunt (who speaks excellent Nagoya-ben). I've met some friends of my wife, but I would herdly call them "friends" at the moment, which is not to say I don't like them. I do, I just hardly know them!

Now the problem is, as a foreign man, now married, it seems quite difficult to meet and make Japanese women friends outside of my immediate family sphere. So perhaps that's just the way it is? I am not on a mission seeking friendship or anything, but having read this thread, it made me think of this.

What do you think?

There is an exception of course, my best friend in Japan (Japanese) is married and I get on well with his wife. Moreso since I strengthened my Japanese.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

It's entirely possible that Western women and Japanese women get along so well because there's none of the sexual undercurrents/tensions that exist between Western men and Japanese women. Certainly I found that Japanese women tend to be on their guard initially with Western men (afraid of the Nanpa factor) and so the friendship can be quite stilted at first.

While Western women and Japanese women can immediately relax in each other's company. I know Japanese women like and admire the strength and forthrightness of Western women, and would like to emulate that. Both sides can learn from each other.

While Western men and Japanese men - well, Japanese men are difficult to be friends with. I don't know if it's that famous inferiority complex or what.

The friends I had when I left were Japan were exclusively female - Western and Japanese. I had no male friends at all, which didn't bug me too much.

[blue jay]

[Lynn]

Platonic men-women relationships are rare among Japanese adults. It dates back to confucianism when boys and girls were separated at age 6.

And I'm not so sure about Japanese women aspriring to be like me because of my strenght and forthrightness...It is the other way around. One of my best friends is Japanese and I love how she doesn't take sh*t from anyone. I aspire to be like her.

[blue jay]

Lynn, you must have met a similiar type of friend as I have. My friend C, who lives in Osaka, is a very strong, determined, independent young woman with a strong work ethic and like you said about your friend, she doesn't take any sh*t from anyone either. I really admire her for her gutsiness and I like to think she just happens to be a Japanese woman.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

Yeah, I agree that Western women can aspire to be like the gutsy Japanese women they meet, but in my experience it's the reverse - a lot of Japanese girls are somewhat timid and see the don't take s*** attitude of many western women as worthy of emulation. Compare the reactions of a Japanese woman and a western woman groped on the train - you can bet the WW wouldn't take that lying down, while many JW bite their lip and put up with it.

[blue jay]

Well..I've been reading all the posts on this thread & the other two threads & am about to give up on all discussions on these points already!
It's too depressing. Ok so are we now going to take a measuring stick & do a study on western women vs Japanese women's ability to stand up for themselves in different situations? You have to take culture into consideration too. How about how would a Japanese guy vs a Western guy reaction to something. Never mind there lots of distinctions between how a Canadian might react or an American or a French person. Etc..

My boyfriend is constantly telling me stop labeling people by nationality or by race or by gender etc. etc. Why can't we just look at people's personality and not by what their nationality, race or gender is suppose to signify, he says. I agree, that's how stereotypes are constantly thrown around.

In the case of Japanese women, they probably wouldn't say anything, as my friend, who is Japanese-Canadian, points out that it is culturally not approved of to speak out in that way. And perhaps a western woman would because culturally we are told to speak up & say something. It wasn't always so. In the past, I was always too timid to say anything in that case, I would suffer in silence. But these days I've realized you have to say something. But there are ways of being assertive without being aggressive.

I'm a western woman who is quite shy, quiet & not the most assertive person around. I've gone through situations where I haven't spoken up and felt really bad because I haven't. I admire women that are able to. I found that with my circle of Japanese friends that maybe 1 or 2 would speak out & the others wouldn't, perhaps due to their personality (similiar to mine) or because of cultural distinctions. I don't know.

I'm depressed to read what's been writtten recently and that's all I have to say on that subject..

[TokyoLiz]

Blue Jay,

Why do all western women get lumped together? I have the same sense about myself - I'm not that assertive, and I tend to hang back and think about how I feel about a given situation before I react. I'm the last person to come out swinging when I'm offended.

So, some western women are assertive, take no shit, etc. I'm learning from the women around me, who happen to be mostly Japanese, to assert my identity as a woman, a Canadian, as me, more clearly.

G-stringed Avenger, I've been fortunate enough not to be physically groped in Japan. But I've seen many offensive things done or said in public in Japan. I'm sure I've told this story before, but I got offended by a henna ojisan on the train who was leering at some school girls. I wouldn't do anything agressive, because that's not me. Instead, I leaned over, let the guy have a good look down my top, and drew his attention away. Maybe that's just my style. Maybe I'm nuts.

[chi-chi-]

Les femmes occidentales au Japon ont un type sp�cial de courage.