Job Discussion Forums

[Ludwig]

"Two Russian airliners carrying around 40 passengers each crashed within minutes of each other after flying out of the same Moscow airport [...] They got into trouble almost simultaneously at about 2300 local time (1900GMT) [...] the first plane was found near the village of Buchalki, in the Tula region, about 200km (125 miles) from Moscow [...] There were reports from eyewitnesses that the aircraft exploded in the air before it crashed [...] The second plane disappeared from radar at around the same time. Russia's Interfax news agency quoted a source as saying the plane sent out a hijack alert shortly before it vanished. Later, it quoted an unnamed law enforcement source as saying the signal had been a distress alert."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3596354.stm

[moonraven]

If it had been 2 planes from somewhere else but Russia, I think more people would be suspicious of a terrorist link. Russian planes have been notorious for lack of maintenance, etc. for many many years. The fact that the US news sites are crying terrorism--even softly--makes me feel that terrorists had nothing to do with those planes....

[justcolleen]

And the Russian news says:

http://www.mosnews.com/news/2004/08/25/twoplanes.shtml

Two Russian Passenger Jets Crash, Terrorism Feared
Created: 25.08.2004 09:31 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 16:45 MSK, 2 hours 33 minutes ago

Two southbound passenger planes crashed almost simultaneously in central and southern Russian regions on Tuesday night, killing 89 people, Russian news agencies report. A hijack report from one of the planes shortly before it went down has raised speculation that the crashes may have been terrorist attacks.

The planes disappeared from radars within minutes of each other, shortly before 23-00 on Tuesday. The Reuters news agency reports that President Vladimir Putin ordered the FSB security service to investigate the incidents � something it would do only under suspicious circumstances.

One jet, a Tupolev 134 carrying 35 passengers and eight crew, crashed near the city of Tula, about 150 kilometers south of Moscow. The plane belonged to the Volga-Aviaexpress carrier and it said the plane was in good shape and its passengers had undergone all the necessary security checks.

Witnesses on the ground saw an explosion on board the plane just before it crashed. �Around 11pm, give or take five minutes, there was this strange noise in the sky, then this torn-up book fell onto our garage,� a local man told NTV television, holding up the book with its tattered pages.

An Emergency Ministry spokeswoman said there were no survivors. The plane fell from 10,000 metres (30,000 feet). Up to 500 rescue workers and police have gone to the scene, officials said.

The other plane, a Tu-154 with 38 passengers and 8 crew on board crashed in Rostov Region, South Russia. The wreckage of this plane and the flight recorder, or �black box�, were found early on Wednesday morning.

The major Russian air carrier Sibir, the owner of the plane has said that it had been in operation since 1982 and was in good condition.

Interfax has quoted a government source as saying that the crashed Tu-154 sent a hijack alarm before disappearing from radars. This, together with the almost simultaneous timing, points to the possibility that the accidents may be terrorist attacks.

�The fact that both planes took off from one airport and disappeared from radars around the same time may show it was a planned action,� Interfax quoted an aviation source as saying. �In such a situation one cannot exclude a terrorist act.�

The incidents came just days before a presidential election in Chechnya where Moscow has been battling separatist rebels for a decade. The rebels launched a major raid in the local capital Grozny last week and have promised more attacks.

However, Farouk Tubulat, a representative of Chechen separatist leader Aslan Maskhadov, has denied any responsibility of �moderate separatists� for the plane crashes. The statement was aired by the Al-Jazeera television on Wednesday. �Our government has nothing to do with terrorist attacks. Our attacks only target the military. This is part of the Russian propaganda plan to besmirch the struggle of the Chechen people,� the Chechen spokesman said.

Russian news agencies quoted officials as saying no foreigners were on either plane.

[Ludwig]

One is shown to have been blown out of the sky:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3604134.stm

One more to go.

[Mark-O]

The BBC link above says:

"The victims' families are to receive 112,000 roubles ($3,800) each in compensation - unless it is proven that terrorism was to blame, in which case they would receive less."

$3,800 or less? What a sick joke!

[ls650]

But how far does $3800 US go in Russia, especially outside of Westernized Moscow?
Where I live $3800 US is an average worker's yearly salary.

[Cleopatra]

Didn't the British army offer something pathtic - like �300 - to the family of an Iraqi girl they had killed?

[Mark-O]

[moonraven]

Apparently explosives were found in the wreckage of one of the planes....

[Ludwig]

It was 390 quid and it is scandalous, (Amnesty International have now become involved in the case, for what it is worth). The (need we state, unarmed) 8-year old girl is said to have been shot in the guts at 60m by one of the brave British boys. In their defence, the august establishment of the British army wrote in stellar fashion that the "mob of youths" � whom the "warning shot" was meant to "disperse" were armed with "stones".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3526162.stm

[Cleopatra]

"In their defence, the august establishment of the British army wrote in stellar fashion that the "mob of youths" – whom the "warning shot" was meant to "disperse" were armed with "stones". "

hmmmm..... highly sophisticated armies killing unarmed civilians due to their intense fear of the might of teenage boys wielding..... stones!!!

Now... in which Middle Eastern country have I heard that before?

[waxwing]

hmm wasn't it specious not spurious?

[zaneth]

Being, as I am, almost totally insulated from and unused to any direct threat of intentional physical violence (knock on wood), I can't say that I wouldn't be afraid of a large mob of kids with stones. Easy to laugh, but really, who of you'd really feel like shrugging off a mob of stone throwing youths. Stones hurt. Kids can throw, sometimes very accurately. And I'm betting the kids outnumber the soldiers. Don't civilians always outnumber and generally surround occupying armies?

Just saying the situation wouldn't be without it's dangers.

Think about a mob of kids. Good throwers, sport enthusiasts, plenty of energy and not enough fear in them. How fast and how far can a kid throw a stone? How large a stone can you make an effective missile out of? Is the ground more or less covered with stones? How fast can they reload? In an enclosed space can you dodge stones if they're coming in fast all at the same time? Will your helmet necessarily help much if you get whacked with a good one? I'm betting this situation would be no picnic.

To answer another question: I feel confident that if someone gave me $3,800 I could exist for a year with my wife and kid in our home in Russia (outside Moscow, minus my student loan payments). I would, of course, far rather have my wife, kid, mother-in-law, grandmother-in-law, father-in-law, etc. than the $3,800. But if I did, that money might be a help for a little while at least.

Seeing as my life is split between America and Russia, this whole thing is a bit worrying.

[Seth]

i would also add that none of us have been tossed in a hostile situation where we didn't know who was friendly and who wanted to blow our heads off. i would never, ever second-guess the actions of a soldier.

don't blame the soldiers, who are just following orders, from the higher powers like Bush and Blair.

American or British soldiers may have fired on youths, but can you really blame a person who is under more stress than we can imagine, who was tossed into this bogus war by powers beyond their control? they can be pacifists, or they can feed their children back home by retaining their vital organs.

don't attack the soldiers who are innocent, working-class pawns.

[Ludwig]