Job Discussion Forums

[Egas]

I'm going to get a little personal here, so those with a queasy stomach better exit the thread fast.

I would like some feedback on the following situation involving my Chinese girlfriend. I am particularly interested in feedback from guys with Chinese wives and girlfriends. Or Chinese girls themselves (but I don't see too many around here).

I have been going out with a 28 year old Chinese lady for a year now. (I'm 37). I'm quite happy with things, happy to coast along and see how things pan out between us. But she seems to see only one point in our relationship - marriage. It seems that every few weeks she brings up the subject, and gets all snooty when I tell her that I love her, but am undecided about marriage. She equates "maybe" with no, and as evidence that I don't love her, and will never marry her. I tell her that in the West it is normal to go out with someone for a long time, even many years before deciding to get married. But she doesn't understand that.

To make matters worse, two of my friends just married Chinese girls after very short relationships. The most recent proposed only two weeks after their first date. Stupidly, I told my gal about this, thinking she would agree with me that he was just a little rash. But no. That was, according to my gal, an example of true love. I call it true stupidity!

Now my gal is threatening to leave me. It's marriage or termination. To be honest I have been thinking of proposing to her, but such strong arm tactics really turn me off. I don't think threats are any way to enter into marriage.

What do you think? Has anyone had this kind of experience before? I don't want to ask her to marry me for the wrong reasons.

[Redfivestandingby]

Your feelings are correct. Threats are no way to enter a marriage. Anyway, due to SARS, China has stopped registering marriages between Chinese and foreigners. I read this on the news and confirmed it with the US Embassy in Beijing last week.

I've been dating a girl for 3 years and we're now talking about marriage. One year, to me, seems rather short but to Chinese this may be perfectly acceptable; especially for her age.

Have you met her parents? How did that go?

Give her the newsbit about the suspension of marriages as a topic for discussion and see how she reacts.

Best of luck!!!

[wOZfromOZ]

Some brief thoughts........

No.1 .........be very, very careful!!!
Dont ever get into the 'blackmail' (I'll do this if) ....... thing.

No.2
The Aussie Consulate ...I mean Da Shi Guan ....in Beijing....
will put you through the third degree!
Is this your first marriage? ..if not, be prepared for a slightly rocky ride!

No.3
Do you have high powered connections/guanxi ?
You may need help - not this end Egas but at the Canberra end!!!

No.4
What's the rest of the family like/want? If you marry a Chinese woman
quite simply you marry the whole family - This can have staggering ramifications. My experience has been excellent so far - been married for
5 years now and have known my wife for 11 years.

Get another opinion - contact an American guy..............get Senor Boogie Woogie in Hangzhou to advise you.

No.5
Does she want to get to Aus.?
Would she be prepared to stay here indefinately to help you foster your career?

No.6
Does she want kids? Do you want kids?
We're about to have our second and I've got a decade on you mate. Do you have kids from a previous marriage? How would she cope with that?

There's a minefield to get through if your circumstances are complicated!

if you want you can contact [email protected]

[wOZfromOZ]

Some brief thoughts........

No.1 .........be very, very careful!!!
Dont ever get into the 'blackmail' (I'll do this if) ....... thing.

No.2
The Aussie Consulate ...I mean Da Shi Guan ....in Beijing....
will put you through the third degree!
Is this your first marriage? ..if not, be prepared for a slightly rocky ride!

No.3
Do you have high powered connections/guanxi ?
You may need help - not this end Egas but at the Canberra end!!!

No.4
What's the rest of the family like/want? If you marry a Chinese woman
quite simply you marry the whole family - This can have staggering ramifications. My experience has been excellent so far - been married for
5 years now and have known my wife for 11 years.

Get another opinion - contact an American guy..............get Senor Boogie Woogie in Hangzhou to advise you.

No.5
Does she want to get to Aus.?
Would she be prepared to stay here indefinately to help you foster your career?

No.6
Does she want kids? Do you want kids?
We're about to have our second and I've got a decade on you mate. Do you have kids from a previous marriage? How would she cope with that?

There's a minefield to get through if your circumstances are complicated!

if you want you can contact [email protected]

[Roger]

At age 29, she might be getting a little despairing as in the not-so-long-ago bad old days, any woman past the 30 threshold would inevitably become unmarriageable.
We know your side of the waltz, but we don't know her side, and being left guessing turns up unsavoury thoughts.
To begin with, someone made the very valid point that you should know her family. If she has not suggested you meet them then I for one would think she has a skeleton in her cupboard!
If she is a divorcee, be doubly careful!

From my own experience, I would advise you to keep the following in mind:
- Find out whether she can reconcile herself to living with you in China rather than emigrating to a Western country - where she could divorce you AND obtain permanent residency rights! I am sorry to tell you that this happens more often than not!

- And, if you live in China, can she support herself? More importantly, IS SHE WILLING TO? Again, experience, not just my own one but that of various other expats I have known over the years, suggests that many Chinese chicks still perceive their hubby as their sugar-daddy-provider. The American feminists' dream of total equality between the two genders does not seem to be fully understood by Chinese women (and men). He is perceived as a selfish man who requires his wife to contribute to household income!
With home properties now being available on the free market, women push their husbands very hard to buy a home of which they automatically become co-owners! In your case, this would be a virtual IOU of your apartment.

Here a compromise suggestion: Buy her an engagement ring with the explicit promise to marry her within a reasonable period!

[kimo]

My grandmother told me 21 years ago that I would know right away, then she told me to wait even when I did know. Egas, somehow, I suspect you know what you really want to do but I would like to know how could you be so stupid to tell your girlfriend about your friends who recently were married after short relationships. I was married some months ago after knowing my wife for about 15 months. However, I still haven't told my best mate here in China. If his girlfriend knew she would pressure him even more for that "I do" (= I do relinquish all my will to you). He simply is not ready.

My own experience has been as someone mentioned above stated, really sweet when it's sweet. Other times have been a real test in self-awareness - for the both of us I guess. Sometimes she goes off for who knows what, other times she seems to have the highest sh*t factor in the world able to laugh off any foley. I have tried to find some state of equilibrium and not swing too far either way.

I am not good at offering advice, but Roger's seems rather close. Don't succumb to pressure and never forget your common sense. NEVER! Let your top head be your guide. And remember in a Chinese family a man must take his power, forget about being equals.

With her or without her you will find your way.

[Minhang Oz]

Dear Egas....if that IS your name:
I cannot add much to what has been said, except that if you marry,your wife will become much more assertive than she already is, though I suspect this is not just a Chinese characteristic. On the legal side, a few points from my experience.
-the time between applying for, and getting an entry visa to Australia was 9 months. The consulate [Guangzhou] was helpful, but slow and inefficient. Clerical staff are locals, and do things in a local fashion; 2 hour lunchbreaks, not answering the phone, answering then hanging up when they hear English. Start collecting testimonies, proof of employment or assetts in Oz, loving photos, gas bills in joint names etc. You'll be asked for all of these. A Canadian friend and his wife are having a much harder time.
-once you've got the visa, there's a time limit on its use.It lapses and you're back to square one. In Aust. the next step is the permanent resident visa, which is easy. Just keep accounts in joint names and stay under the one roof.

You may see this as problematic as you haven't decided whether to marry yet. However, if you do, the next test of your true love will be your willingness to sponsor her visa application. Any hesitation on this one will be evidence of your intention to flee China without your bride. Chinese women are suspicious of Western men- untrustworthy philanderers. Some are. "A Chinese wife is useful----in China" quoted from a former colleague, signalling his long term intention. And expect some sizeable chunks of joint income to go to your new inlaws. This is not a ripoff- no dutiful daughter could do less.
Your friend,
Dorothy Dix

[hubei_canuk]

Marriage chit-chat
---------------------
Hmm, one chinese womam asked to see my "single certificate " on the first date. Actually, chinese women that i know don't usually date, they just get married. I'm surprised a little here but i guess there in Beijing some of them are willing to (temporarily) have some tolerance for foreign idiocyncracies.
Chinese girls are single and don't have any boyfriends (they tell you they are too young) .. until they are 24 o 25 when they suddenly get married.
I think it's a genetic process. It just suddenly happens out of nowhere.
...
The exception is, of course, Shanghai girls. In my own experience of course. They were like sharks. wallet, heart, body all ripped to shreds. Maybe more like pirrhana.
...
Oh yeah, certainly count up her relatives. you will marry a social unit...make that a $ocial unit.
...
Memories like "Where is the (wonderful-thing) i gave you?
Answer, "Oh, i gave it to my mother, sister(cousin) etc.
Or like give a box of expensive candy. Watch it disappear in 5 minutes to every Li, Yang and Lily.
Pointless waste, anything i bought for "her" went to the "golden horde".
..
But are you any good for her? Be no good if you do not have the same goals.
What is your social encoding for marriage anyway? I really don't know the standard or whatever. Just saw on yahoo: National standard in America age 26 for marriage. Looks like you missed it Egas.
..
In phillipines, if a girl is unmarried past 25 years they say she is past Christmas.

[senor boogie woogie]

Hola!

I thank OZ for mentioning me as a marriage advisor.

My wife and I got married after knowing each other four monthes. When I met her, she knew absolutely no English. I, my Chinese friend, schools and books have been teaching her since. We went to Shanghai for a "honeymoon" before proposal. On the way back by train, I proposed to her using my handy English/Chinese dictionary.

Im 36, and she is almost 38 (looks real good 3. She wanted to marry right away, and I wanted to wait another 6-8 monthes, basically because I wanted us to learn each other's language well and learn about each other's personal habits. The first couple of monthes were hard on us because we were fighting all the time, and neither of us knew dogsquat about each other's culture. I still tell her we got married too soon.

Getting married is easy, as long as its a first marriage. If you are an American, look at the embassy website for what paperwork is required. No biggie. Chinese are extremely resourceful people (believe it or not) and your girlfriend will take care of the rest. There also might be a "wedding celebration" down the road. This is where the couple rent a hotel, stand in front of it in their wedding clothes while a high school marching band plays some bad tunes (my marriage bad was good though).

I hate to argue, but in my case, I am NOT married to the family. Twice or three times a year, I give my mother in law about 1000 RMB for food and spending money. She is a widow. I consider myself her youngest son, and I don't mind this at all. You are not responsible for her family members.

If you love her, you should marry her. Think of it like any marriage to a western woman. My wife is not a gold digger, because I have little gold to dig. You have been with her for a year, you should know her heart and feelings.

SENOR

PS: We are trying to make a baby now, this is a harder task than I thought it would be, but the labor involved is fun, interesting and rewarding.

[Egas]

Thanks everyone for your well-considered and kind comments, including a few people who wrote to me personally. My gal is not typically Chinese. She’s hard-working, a uni. graduate and developing good business skills. She doesn’t care where she lives, here or Oz.

Yes, telling her about my mate who proposed marriage after just dating for two weeks, was really dumb!

Even more dumb, I took her to see a doctor in Beijing today (chest problems). After a ten minute consultation where the doctor talked to her and listened to her breathing, she kicked us out and hit us for RMB 1300! (yes, one thousand three hundred - about half for the consultation, and half for medicine). I nearly had a heart attack! We paid the consulation fee, and left the medicine behind. Never again! I will never compalin about chinese medicine being a rip off again.

[hubei_canuk]

’
’
’
’
...
I thought you were through with the ’'s?
-----------------------------------------------------
I think that doctor had skinned foreigner for lunch!
But who cares! All foreigners are rich, rich rich!
I ask price first always, then negotiate it. Never buy first, not even a service or a consultation. With a girlfiend they hope you won't want to lose face by asking first.
...
Girlfriends are terribly inconvenient that way. When a seller sees you with your girlfriend the price triples. When your girlfirend looks wontonly at a scarf the seller knows you have no bargaining power at all!
My solution is to be a very unpleasant guy right from the start. Money first! Pleasantries later.
..
Thinking it over... you should not have accompanied your girlfriend to the doctors. At some point she should go in and they should not see you together. Theat way the price will remain "chinese." she should never mention a "foreign" boyfriend.
...
This is SOP for a service or for an item. If I want to buy something for my girlfriend i give her the money and she buys it. If the seller sees us together, i'm dead meat or rather my wallet is.
In Yangshuo a business friend used to have a secretary and he would also follow this procedure..send the secretary to buy it.

[arioch36]

If you meet her family, you might have a good clue what she will be like. I think her being pushy is a good sign she doesn't understand you, or maybe that is what her personality is really like.

I remember Kvido saying how submiassive Chinese women were, and I said, kvido, you don't know Chinese woman. They can be very demanding, also very insecure. (The two sometimes go together, as they might in your case)

To Chinese, the word "maybe" has a very different meaning. If the say it, it means yes, but I don't want to presume to say yes. But when we say it to them it sometimes means, "no I don't want to do it, but I will be polite and say maybe"

[kimo]

Egas, skrew it. Forget about her! You make the rules! Tell her to go ..... herself. There are lots of fish in the Yellow River. (You just can't see them except at night when they are glowing.)

Tell her she better change for you cause you ain't changing one iota for her. Sorry! I want to warn you, buddy!

[brsmith15]

I, too, have a Chinese lady friend. She's 36 and I'm 64. We've been toegther almost 4 years and although I'm out of China right now, I lan to return and marry.

Here's the MAGIC QUESTION and you MUST answer it truthfully and without hesitation. If you do that, there will be no more mental haggling.

Are you ready?
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"If I could give it to you (meaning the marriage) would you take it?"

[hubei_canuk]

Who proposed?.
Him or Her?
...
Anyway if you don't say yes now, i wouldn't wait another 20 years.
...
Anyway foolish question. Maybe a younhger lady 28 to 32 would be better for a vigorous man but it's a world of tough choices.
...
..serious comment though, I think chinese culture ages chinese people quickly. Because of their sociaization they become old far ahead of their time. ..In terms of vigorous exercise social activities, physical habits.. a great deal of pressure on people to "act their age" in a certain way.. tend to become stiff and not let loose. Like to find some age expectancy stats and compare with Canadians. But even with that, really the comparison would be activity not length of life.
...
(AHH i was cursed by soc and phil studies...)