Job Discussion Forums

[sallyann]

I teach at a college and last year none of my classes were English majors. Actually, most of them were boys who were majoring in engineering or business. My classes went extremely well last year and I felt that I had been successful. The students enjoyed the activities I gave them, I tried to make the classes interesting and they seemed to appreciate it.

This year ALL my classes are English majors. What a nightmare. The complaining and whining have started already. "Are you going to give us more chances to speak English? We want to speak more English!" blah blah blah. No matter what I do, it's never enough for them. Do any of you have this problem?

The worst thing is, they want to constantly babble in English and force me to listen to their opinions about things I have no interest in. Today they wanted to talk about "Did the Chinese athletes compete at the Olympic Games because of national spirit or because they wanted money?"

WHO CARES? Not me. I don't want to talk about that for five minutes, forget 100 minutes, which is how long the class goes for. I'd rather have the students doing role plays, which at least are a bit more interesting for me. But then they complain about that too. Do you think it's normal for students to complain all the time?

[limits601]

Maybe try breaking up the class into 2 groups and have debates on topics they want to discuss. Even if you dont find them too interesting, they do and they are really learning and you can interject into the debates too.

[goeastyoung(ish)man!]

[cimarch]

Umm, correct me if I'm wrong but your classes are supposed to be for your students' benefit, not yours, right?

So what if you're not interested, your students are and that's what matters. Your job is to encourage and help your students to speak English, not to be entertained. They have different interests to you, deal with it.

If you really must make them talk about what you want to talk about then make a list of topics, preferably with them, and let them choose from the list.

[Roger]

I wholeheartedly sympathise! There is a misconception - probably imported from one of those ivory towery think-tanks in the West - that the more these kids babble in English the better it will become. Nonsense! It will - perhaps - become more "fluent" but at the price of incomprehension, inaccuracy and mangled pronunciation!

Why do they demand that OTHERS GIVE THEM A CHANCE at speaking English??? Why can't they create such chances by themselves?

The only really meaningful solution is to compel them to speak in front and to have the class LISTEN TO A SINGLE PERSON SPEAKING ENGLISH! Why is this so difficult to accept? Why is it normal for CHinese to recite a CHinese poem in front of their peers but not to hold a speech in English??? I don't get it even though many of my western colleagues don't believe in the virtuosity of holding speeches in front of a class!

They would have to speak coherenlty; their classmates would have to pay attention; they would learn how to identify mispronunciations and problematic mangled grammar and they would therefore have to learn from their own mistakes!

Pair work? A waste of time! They only talk to themselves with a token opposite number; they rehearse pre-meditated phrases and dialogues but they never venture out of their accustomed boxes! This has to change!

This is the only chance I gave ADULT English learners - if they were prepared to speak to their own colleagues, not to me! Don't tell me it doesn't work because the Chinese are so delicate or something!!!!

I am delicate too - I don't want to be bothered with listening to preconceived, mistranslated ideas straight from one of their Chinese textbooks!

[nolefan]

this is a double edged sword....

I'd love for my students to babble enough in any topic... Other than the kids that I've had last semester, getting the students to say anything is like pulling teeth.

As far as the extra opportunities to practice, I just delegate that responsibility to them. I spend my first two periods explaining how there are too many of them and only one "me"... it's not enough to go around. I give them some suggestions on how to practice more and tell them what worked for me when I was learning other languages...they seem to get it.

[sallyann]

I have never had any success at getting one student to speak while the other students listen. In my experience, it has always been a hopeless failure. They simply are not willing to listen to their classmates, probably because they can't understand a word of their horrible pronunciation. Inevitably, they tune out and start talking amongst themselves.

Today a boy told me he wanted to talk about an "ashla". I said I didn't know what an "ashla" was. They whispered amongst themselves, and after a few more attempts, I finally figured out he meant "athlete". No wonder they can't understand each other.

Yes, the class if for their benefit and not mine, but in my opinion there's no benefit in me listening to mangled, horrible, incorrect English and letting them believe that they are "English speakers". If they went to an English-speaking country, most of these blabbermouths wouldn't survive the first day without a translator.

I get the feeling some of these "compulsive talkers" are just crying out for attention and want the spotlight on themselves at all times. Well, I am not their mother, and I don't find every word they say fascinating and compelling.

It's the ones who really have nothing to say, that constantly complain about "not getting enough chances to speak English". The intelligent students can have a normal conversation in English, without spewing out a whole load of quotes and propaganda and recycled phrases that they have memorised.

Some of you who have just begun teaching in China, or who have not taught college-age students or older, may not know what I mean. Anyone who's been here for a while I think would know what I'm talking about.

[Ace]

I'm amazed they could be bothered talking about the Olympics at all...

In the past three weeks I met one guy who went crazy whenever China had a win, nobody else seemed to notice they were on...My wealthy businessmen friends had no interest, my poor friends - even though they have TV and watch (I suspect all the time when I'm not there) weren't interested...my old students who are my friends have come back from their holidays and they don't seem to have noticed anything...(one doesn't have TV on the farm...) but now I've had my first, ghastly new class and these students were equally indifferent, except for two! (Possibly two of the most likeable, but there's no connection, after the opening ceremony I lose interest too...)

Have you noticed this? Is all the hype CCP propaganda? What's your impression of the fitness level of your students too? I've had college students (boys? I really want to say men...) dying on me and having major dramas when they couldn't have a snooze after lunch...instant fever material that! I've been mountain climbing (a small mountain, believe me, if I could do it...) with another who complained constantly about the heat, the exertion etc...his parents and I found it ok...

Of course, I don't think you could call their college diets nutritious...

[oprah]

This week I get to meet all the NEW students for the first time. They are the new students here in the school this year.. Isn't it wonderful when it is new, they are so excited to meet the foreigner. This does not last forever..BUT I must say if my topic is about the Olympics they are very interested and proud of their country. These are senior middle school students. They ALL watched the Olympics on TV.. No one did anything for the summer holiday.. watch TV, play computer games..I like to tell them though that they came in 3rd at the Olympics, they think they came in second as they only count gold medals. This week they are learning about silver and bronze medals (new words for them -- they know gold).
I do not do debates or opinions-- I do not care. We talk about different topics and do chain stories...and sing songs..and learn the meaning of the songs. This term I will teach them for many more weeks than last term, so I need more activities this time, but it will not be debates or opinions. I have too much respect for the language to hear bad grammar, but I always help them when they try. They can not say No in my room. If they can not express what they mean then we figure out a way to communicate by showing what they mean, on blackboard or in actions and then verbalize the information.

[joe greene]

Sallyann, I know exactly what you mean. Collectively, the English majors have the worst attitudes. Chips on their shoulders. It's very difficult to do any error correction, even pronunciation (don't even attempt to do grammar). They feel they have the best English language instruction from the best [Chinese] English teachers. So they feel their English level is much higher than students of other majors.

Be very, very careful with the Chinese faculty of your English department. They've built their entire lives and careers around their status as local, provincial, or even national experts in the English language. But most of them have never been out of the country. Many of them have very poor spoken English. Your very presence is a threat. Just having to speak to you could cause them to lose a huge amount of face. Their insecurity may lead them to undermine you and generally make your stay unpleasant.

Sorry, this is off topic, but it's something to look out for.

[The Great Wall of Whiner]

[sallyann]

TGWOW

What do you see? I don't understand your point.


"It's their dime, kiddo. Give them what they want.

That's why I teach kids. Kids do as they're told."


Aren't you completely contradicting yourself here? On one hand, you are saying that I should give the students what they want. On the other hand, you say that you teach kids because they do as you tell them.

"Why do the classes have to be entertaining for YOU? Why do they have to be interesting for YOU?"

Because I want to enjoy my job. I'm sorry if that makes you angry.

Thanks for the responses from those who "got" what I was talking about.

[Roger]

To do as your students tell you, to do their bidding - my goodness! Are they mature enough to decide what they actually want???
No, students ought to learn to do what's in their power and obey certain instructions; they are learning to be social beings. School is not about entertaining kids all the time - it's about learning how to be a social being integated into a social body.

The students don't pay me, and they are not my customers; nor am I their lapdog or classroom clown.

These kids get a very costly special favour - they get native English teachers in their classrooms, and they are not up to scratch for the jobs we are supposed to perform with them.
Our jobs could be done by educated Chinese English teachers too - but they aren't interested and the system doesn't inculcate in them any interest or respect for the subject they ae teaching. Why on earth don't they speak English with their own students?
That's the major rub - they set a very bad example! If they won't talk in the target language why should their passive, comatose students go out of their way and use English with each other?

And compulsory English is like free food - if you don't have to pay (read: make an effort) you are not going to appreciate it.

Does any of your students really appreciate the existence of English in their timetables? Does any of them do homework?

The acquisition of a second language happens only if your mind is open; you learn consciously; these kids are not studying consciously but rather robotically, mechanically, repetitively and in a communitarian way.
They form habits and quasi-Pavlovian reflexes but they don't learn.

[goeastyoung(ish)man!]

If I am not mistaken, the point of "English Conversation" is to develop fluency. With my conversation classes, I worked mostly on developing confidence to speak in small groups or large. Yes, the English that was spoken was often mangled or mispronounced, but I only corrected the most egregious errors of the worst students and more often with the better students. It doesn't matter how much you can correct the students grammar and pronunciation; if they don't have confidence and practice speaking, they won't put all that theory into practice.

I do agree with Roger as to making them speak in front of the classes. One method I used in my classes to enforce listening to student speakers was to occasionally look like I was going to go off in a violent rage when students were chatting amongst themselves. (Ok, so it wasn't all an act - but I managed to control myself - this is a classroom after all, not a public gymnasium.) Seriously, it works if you go nuts a little (yell, kick someone out of class etc.), but for no more than 30 seconds so you don't come off as psycho. After that, a mere nostril flare and wide eyeballs seems to work.

I only taught in China one year and now am back in civilization (ok, the US) but I think I developed a thicker skin regarding student "criticisms". I agree wholeheartedly that it is MY CLASSROOM and I appreciated the comments from the students and even some of the Chinese teachers who observed me, but didn't make all of the suggested changes if I felt strongly about it. For example, it bored the bleep out of some students, but I had them repeat a text reading aloud after me for at least 3-5 minutes in a class en masse. I think it is necessary to get the rhythm of English from a native speaker. This was strictly enforced.

We are not dancing monkeys to entertain the kids, (esp in a University!) but I think it is beneficial to try to make it enjoyable for them to the extent possible without compromising your teaching.

[burnsie]

I was told today I spoke too little in class! I was trying to get them to speak more and encourage them to get their confidence in speaking.

So I agree with goeastyoung man.