Job Discussion Forums

[PAULH]

Dan

you can use all the big and fancy words that you like which is fine. The bottom line is, after ten years working at the college level in japan, Im on the inside looking out, while you are on the outside looking in. I work with teachers here, know the language and my way around the college system here and I know what schools here are looking for.

I dont know whether or if you actually have any publications and what is required in writing them for publishing in the public domain and in referreed overseas journals (often going through an editorial board first before publication). My guess iscreating a teaching career in ESL Linguistics that requires regular publications that such an endeavor is definitely not a soft option. For example you can see the Language Teacher the JALT journal, both refereed publications on http://jalt.org This is not to justify myself in anyway , but to show you the level of work that teachers here are producing.

I also know how easy it is to get jobs in Korean and China. They may be Asia but they are also different countries. You will also find even Hong Kong a tough nut to crack, as at last count there were only half a dozen universities there.


I also ought to mention that of the last two jobs I applied for- one (private university) had 100 applicants of which 3 were chosen, and another (national medical university) had 30 applicants from which they chose 6.

[PAULH]

Dan

If I could just recap your original post

"I am interested in find work in a decent university in japan. soon, i will finish an MA in English and i am contemplating continuing on for a Ph.D. however, would an additional MA, in say, TESOL be equally to my advantage if i want to teach in japan?"

I dont want to flog a dead horse here, but the simple fact of the matter is, whether you like it or not, working at a university in japan will consist of working in a classroom with anything between 20 and 100 students to a class. Some classes will be lecture-style like you would expect in the US, others will be more student centered and have students working in small groups etc. For many it is the firts time they have had a foreign lecturer or the chance to actually speak or hear English.

There are those who argue that you dont need a PHd to teach English conversation which may be true, but seeing as your average freshman at college here speaks next to no english, has a TOEFL score of 250, words like semiotic and vituperative will simple just go way over their heads. I work with professors who have phDs from American universities and they never use words like that. Students are sick of Studying after having been through the examination process and want to let their hair down. I dont agree with this anymore than you but you can not impose your ethnocentric American values on Japanese students, whom you plan on teaching. Students here think and behave differently than they do in the US and you have to act and prepare accordingly. A PhD wont necessarily prepare you for that. (I am doing a pHd with a British university for research and job advancement purposes) and probably has little connection to the job I am doing at hand, but you want to make sure you have the teaching skills and ability in hand, rather than think you are Gods gift to teaching becuase you have a doctorate.

I dont know what you plan on teaching once you get your PHd and despite the fact that that is what schools require before they hire you. This is more a screening process than anything else- my school advertised the positions as a PhD position last year, had several applicants apply but didnt hire anyone as (they thought teaching conversation classes were too low for them for their qualifications) and the salary was too low- this was a national university) Many PhDs have also spent 5-6 years studying and have little or no idea how to actually etach their subject- you only need to look at many of the phD teaching assistants in the US who know their stuff but cannot connect to their students. If you think such teaching is beneath you, students will vote with their feet and not take your class.

One of the other posts mentioned a PhD is probably better- Im not going to argue with him, but a lot depends on what type of teaching you wnat to do, whether you want to do 'research' (if you are a foreigner many universities will not hire you just for that but for teaching classes as well).
A PhD doesnt hurt and will put you ahead of the competition, but having the PhD will not guarantee you the job, as there are numerous other factors at play- teaching ability, Japanese ability, experience, number of publications, area of expertise.

And one final note-

There may be thousands of phDs who cant get jobs in the US, or could probably get jobs here if they came. The question remains that even if they were qualified, how many really want to fly half away around the world, deal with culture shock, deal with a strange and difficult language, be separated from family and friends, MTV and operate in a a different work culture (limited term contracts, pointless meetings etc)?

[Glenski]

Just to add to what Paul wrote:

[Lucy Snow]

Glenski--the only way the Education Ministry is going to reach that goal is if they eliminate teaching what I called "examination English." As the system is now, you end up with kids who have extensive vocabularies, who will ask you complex questions about grammar, but have trouble stringing words together into a grammatically correct sentence.

Another thing they should do is eliminate the JET program. I think the money would be better spent sending Japanese teachers of English to countries like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, ext. for two years. Hopefully that would stop teachers who write English sentences on the blackboard, with the katakana equivalent underneath. Maybe then students would actually learn to say "dog" or "pink"--not "dogu" or "pinku."
The teachers would also learn a lot about the culture in those countries which they could pass on to their students.

I talked to another gaijin once who said that katakana should be eliminated entirely, because it hampers the Japanese from learning proper pronunication, but I wouldn't go that far.

[Glenski]

Lucy,

I agree with you 100% on every count. (Except that I have no students with high vocabularies or that ask me any complex grammar questions. Those come from the teachers! The HS students where I work memorize the vocabulary lists, get tested on them, then forget them 30 minutes later.)

I hope you weren't thinking that I feel the Ministry was actually doing something positive and productive!

Sadly, the Ministry put out a paper saying that they wanted to increase the presence of JET ALTs in the classroom.

[Lucy Snow]

Glenski--I would never accuse you of claiming the Ministry of Education did anything positive! I know you've been in Japan too long for that kind of nonsense.

[guest of Japan]

I think that the major purpose of ALT's is to just get students used to foreigners. I think they figure it's a great bonus if students can actually improve their English.

However, I agree that the money would be better spent enabling English teachers to live abroad for a period of time.

Since I am an ALT, I have mixed feelings. However I teach my students for a full hour and a half every week, so I hope that I might possibly have some positive effect on the English ability of my students.

It's seems that the original topic has been hijacked. Thank you Paul and Lucy for all that fascinating info on teaching in a Japanese University. It certainly seems a daunting prospect. Mark

[PAULH]

Guest

FYI:

I tell my TOEIC class (and its been shown in surveys) that to raise their TOEIC scores 1 point they have to study approximately 1 hour (more at lower levels) , so to go from 350 on TOEIC to 350 they would need to study 200 hours. The average college or high school student has a 90 minuet class once a week or 26 weeks of the year. That makes about 40 hours a year when you take out roll call and setting up the class. Many of my students I dont see any progress in their English until they are in their graduating senior year at university.

A bit dishearting to see no real progress over the cours eof the school year but they have to start somewhere, i guess. When you consider it takes the average foreigner at least a year or two living full-time immersed in this culture before they pick up spoken Japanese (many from scratch and dont have six years study behind them like Japanese do) you can see your students have their work cut out for them with only one lesson a week.

[Reesy]

[guest of Japan]

Thanks for the TOEIC-study time ratio Paul. I was unaware of that statistic. I'm sure you did notice that I wasn't overly optimistic in my goals.

Since this topic has gotten off subject a lot, I was wondering if I could pick your brain for some ideas. Other people's ideas are of course very welcome. Here goes.

The high school I am teaching in is a private high school for low level students in rural Chiba. The average English abilitiy level is unbelievably low. I would say they lag about 3 years behind the average high school student in ability. In addition to this they are for the large part very apathetic, disruptive and lazy. I'm not usually quick to throw those words around about students, but they've got me stumped and exausted. I want to have a communicative lesson utilizing a lot of pair work and role playing, but they won't do it. So, I started to use worksheets more often because I could at least get 50% of the students to actively try. Today my lesson was observed by the owner of the small dispatching agency that hired me and by the head of the English department. I was told it was routine, as I'm a new teacher to the system. I showed my lesson to my boss before the class and he said it was a good lesson.

During the first part of the lesson I was using a worksheep of which the function was to help jar students' memories of basic nouns in the house. My boss actually called me over in the middle of the exercise to tell me that this part of the lesson wasn't communicative enough. He said it was "like a lecture for them." I asked him what he recommended and he said that I should point to various objects in the room and get students to tell me what they are. I defensively told him that when I do that I get only one or two students answering the questions while the others talk amongst themselves, sleep or gaze off in the distance. In the end I appeased him by cutting the activity short and calling out for the students answers. Later in the lesson I used drill cards to get the students to say the correct vocabulary and I got exactly what I told him would happen. I also used some interactive activities with vary limited success.

So I guess what I'm asking is how do I engage these students in a communicative lesson? I would greatly appreciate any teaching ideas or condolences. Contemplating hari kiri, Mark

[dan]

once again, very helpful. i spend time on the china forum, too. its interesting how much more involved and dedicated you guys are than your china counterparts. its very telling about the industry in japan. its also nice to know that people there take the profession seriously.

and glensky: i thought it would be easier living there because westerners often receive exceptional treatment abroad (and, yes, the opposite is equally true, so save the diatribe), and ive heard that teachers can make decent money there. afterall, internet sites teeming with teaching jobs in the states do not exist, at least not to the degree that they do for jobs abroad, many of which pertain to Japan. anyway, i have visited japan a few times (as well as much of asia) and i was often extended favorable treatment, at least to my face. the women were especially friendly (i seldomly meet women who look like that here in america, nor as often), not to mention the strangers who were happy to throw down some pints with me. anticipating you again, yes, they probably all had a good laugh when i left, but the atmosphere was, in the end, genuinely amiable and friendly. and of course, i was only traveling through, so yes, i am aware that day to day living is different, both more challenging and mundane, blah blah blah. i get that much. but i hold to my initial contention...vituperatively ungovernable

[Lucy Snow]

What in heaven's name do you mean by "vituperatively ungovernable?" Is it that you asked for advice, people who know what they're talking about gave it, and you didn't like what you heard? Would it have been better if we had been all warm and fuzzy and gave you a totally wrong idea of what the university job market is like in Japan?

Yes, some of us can get a bit snippy on this board, mainly when people whine about the answers that they're given.

Teaching in Japan is nothing, and I repeat, nothing like teaching in the US. My husband had been hired to teach American Literature. He found out the first week that expecting his students to read more than one book per term was out of the question. He then tried short stories. Still too difficult. The last five years he was in Japan he concentrated on poetry, figuring that the students could at least get through a sonnet in two weeks.

I'm not even going to go into teaching composition.

And Paul's not exaggerating about class size. I was expected to teach a class of 100 students reading skills. Not much chance for individual attention there. That year I was teaching a total of 900 students. Guess how many I got to know on an individual basis?

In every university class I taught, I had to lay down rules about using their cell phones, coming in late, talking out of turn, not doing their homework, etc. etc. There was always a good chance that if I failed a student, the administration would just change the grade to a passing one without consulting me.

And I can't be accused of being territorial because I'm not in Japan anymore. The only thing I miss about teaching in Japanese universities is the money.

[Glenski]

dan,

First of all, please spell my name right. It isn't that hard to do.

Second...

[PAULH]

Just thought I would add something extra:

I am teaching a sophomore conversation class at the same time as one other teacher in that time period.

The first week I had 75 students turn up for the class and we had to move to a bigger room. Had a level check test to try and split up the class between us (he had about 15 the first week) but most had already bought the text books so it was a futile exercise. Last week it looked like I will be having 55 students in a university conversation class. These are students with 6 years of high school (examination) English and about 40 hours of English last year. Average TOEIC score for these kids is about 400. The books I am using are Interchange and Headway 2. Thank God Im not trying to teach Thomas Pynchon or Mark Twain or somebody like that with such a large class.

[PAULH]

once again, very helpful. i spend time on the china forum, too. its interesting how much more involved and dedicated you guys are than your china counterparts. its very telling about the industry in japan. its also nice to know that people there take the profession seriously.

Thats why universities ask for Masters and phDs here and real qualifications, and not just a Western passport and a white face.
You actually need to be able to show you know what you are doing.
I also understand teachers in China are kept on a shorter leash and are basically treated like performing seals for the students.

teachers here actually have teaching Masters degrees, TESL, CELTA publish, and are interested in improving their teaching skills. Then again I guess its pretty hard to improve your skills or take your job seriously when you are on a subsistence wage working at a sweatshop school in Shenzhen or Hainan or whereever.


and glensky: i thought it would be easier living there because westerners often receive exceptional treatment abroad (and, yes, the opposite is equally true, so save the diatribe), and ive heard that teachers can make decent money there.

Yes you can make decent money, but asl Glenski has said, expenses and cost of living are higher here and you can only make money if you (a) spend less or (b) earn more and dont spend it all in the bars of roppongi.

Teacher salaries at university in Japan are anything between 5 and 10 million yen (US$40-80,000) a year depending on experience, age and qualifications so you can see why some people make the effort to get themselves qualified into these positions.



afterall, internet sites teeming with teaching jobs in the states do not exist, at least not to the degree that they do for jobs abroad,

Abroad is where most of the jobs are and ESL is not considered to be a high status profession in the US, unlike in universities in Japan or Korea or Taiwan etc.


many of which pertain to Japan. anyway, i have visited japan a few times (as well as much of asia) and i was often extended favorable treatment,

As a tourist they willl always roll out the red carpet, until you actually start learning the language, make plans to live here permanently, or yikes, marry one of their daughters/sons. the drawbridge goes up real quick as you are no longer a tourist and a non-threat to them. I have had Japanese speak English to me even though I spoke to them in fluent Japanese. Some refuse to believe Japanese can come out of a caucasian's mouth but quite acceptable for a Japanese-American or Chinese-American.

PS wait till you have kids here with a Japanese spouse and deal with bicultural and bilingual issues and you see the real side of many people in this country.





at least to my face. the women were especially friendly (i seldomly meet women who look like that here in america, nor as often), not to mention the strangers who were happy to throw down some pints with me.

I meet plenty of gaijin and Japanese in bars that I meet for the first time and down a pint with them- no big deal. Done it a couple of times in Singapore airport too, waiting for my next flight, too.





anticipating you again, yes, they probably all had a good laugh when i left, but the atmosphere was, in the end, genuinely amiable and friendly. and of course, i was only traveling through, so yes, i am aware that day to day living is different, both more challenging and mundane, blah blah blah. i get that much. but i hold to my initial contention...vituperatively ungovernable

Again, just who the F### are you trying to impress here?