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mayjay
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:38 am Post subject: What if..... |
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A hypothetical situation:
Someone goes to Taiwan to teach via a recruiter from their country of origin. They get there, get settled and signed in a contract (ARC and all that good legal stuff) and find that its not all its cracked up to be after teaching for while. They get offered another position elsewhere, also legal. My question: how hard is it to get out of the original contract and what sort of penalities could one possibly face. Also, I've heard of blacklisting occurring - is this possible? I know this has been discussed before but I'd appreciate it if someone could just tell me one more time. Thanks a million. |
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Taylor
Joined: 24 Oct 2003
Posts: 384
Location: Texas/Taiwan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Dear MayJay,
Assuming your situation is truly "hypothetical," I will ask you if anything is ever "all it's cracked up to be" ???
What could a recruiter possibly promise...? Can a recruiter promise that the children will never be noisy? Or that adult students will never ask strange questions? Surely you are not being promised catered meals, limo service, and an unlimited expense account!!!
If you have a room with a whiteboard, an AC, and students with textbooks...then what more could you ask for? I am not trying to be facetious....It's just that you are very likely in your 20's, whereas I am in my mid-30's. I suspect there may be a gap in expectations.
If you have any friends or acquaintances already teaching in Taiwan, you should definitely visit with them soon.
Best wishes!!! |
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mayjay
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| I have not yet arrived in Taiwan but will be doing so in the near future. I am quite aware of the realities of teaching in a foreign country as i have many friends who have done so and I know that it can range from amazing to absolutely horrible. And because I have done extensive research I also know the realities of dealing with schools in Taiwan and I know that I will have my work cut out for me and I also know that my attitude will be the strongest factor that determines whether I have a positive experience. I asked the question, using a hypothetical situation because I would like to know the legalities involved in such a situation, as I know it is something that many people have faced ( I like to be prepared if possible for any situation). So, instead of assuming I'm a spoiled brat, I'd just appreciate if you could answer my question. Not all twenty-somethings going to taiwan are idiots. Some people actually are interested in culture and education. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:58 am Post subject: Re: What if..... |
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| mayjay wrote: |
| Someone goes to Taiwan to teach via a recruiter from their country of origin. |
That would be your first mistake right there! I am not anti-recruiter, but I certainly cannot see any compelling reason to use one. Maybe if you were here in Taiwan and a local recruiter was able to offer you a particularly high paying job or a job that was particularly suited to your requirements, then a recruiter could be a good way to go. You could swing by the school, check it out, speak with the staff etc., and then make an informed decision.
Dealing with a recruiter who is based overseas, while you are also still overseas is a recipe for disaster. If you have done any research on teaching in Taiwan you will see that most problems arise from lack of communication, or miscommunication. When you add a third party who has a financial interest in closing the deal to job negotiations on a school site unseen, you are really asking for trouble. It is improbable that the recruiter based overseas has pesonally visited each school that they recruit for, and therefore every question you ask them would need to be relayed to the school for an answer, or more than likely the recruiter would just give you a guesstimate. Either way you are unlikely to get a true picture of what the school is offering or even what they are like. Half the decision in choosing a school is whether or not you actually like your manager. The recruiter could be the nicest person in the world, but you are not going to be working with them. If you have no contact with the actual school how can you be sure that you are not being traded to work with a 'devil'.
| mayjay wrote: |
| They get there, get settled and signed in a contract (ARC and all that good legal stuff) and find that its not all its cracked up to be after teaching for while. |
Here is problem number two. Even before starting work you are considering the possibilities of breaking any contract that you sign. In my opinion this is the wrong way to go into any agreement, and you might seriously want to re-consider whether working overseas is right for you. Assuming that someone was to give the advice that there was no problem with breaking a contract, then it seems highly probable that you would break your contract at the first sign of trouble when in fact you really should resolve the problem.
I think that Taylor raised some very good points. I can guarantee you that you will find some discrepancies in your expectations of what living and teaching in Taiwan might be, as opposed to what you will actually find. This would be true no matter which foreign country you went to. The key is to be able to accept these discrepancies and work around them. This is what makes the experience in foreign countries so valuable. Coming in with the expectation that you could just leave if things weren't as expected, pretty well guarantees that you will break your contract, and quite possibly over something rather trivial.
| mayjay wrote: |
| They get offered another position elsewhere, also legal. |
Let me turn this around a bit for you and see if I can give you a bit of my perspective on this scenario.
Let's say that you were working for a school, doing your best, and achieving pretty good results. One day, a more experienced or more qualified teacher walks through the door looking for work. Should your school:
a. Give you the shaft despite all of your hard work.
b. Decline the other teacher in support of you.
Herein lies your answer to the question you have posed. Surely you can only expect the same level of respect from any school that you are willing to show them. Leaving because a 'better' position comes availble elsewhere shows very little respect for your employer, your co-teachers, and more importantly your students.
| mayjay wrote: |
| My question: how hard is it to get out of the original contract and what sort of penalities could one possibly face. |
Not hard enough in my opinion. If your employer is in breach of the contract that they sign with you then you can seek and receive a release through mediation. If the school has not breached but you feel that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence then you have no legal right to break the contract. As an adult you have signed a one year agreement to work for a school, and they in turn have set everything up (work permit, classes, etc.) for you. If you breach you can expect a monetary penalty whether this is stated in the contract or not, and such penalties are standard in any services contract that you may sign in almost any country of the world. If they breach; they pay. If you breach; you pay. That seems fair!
| mayjay wrote: |
| Also, I've heard of blacklisting occurring - is this possible? |
Yes. Basically, depending upon the school, and the way in which you breach your contract you may find that either there are no consequences, or that the consequences are quite severe. In the worst case scenario they could blacklist you with the authority that issues work permits, and if they force you into an overstay situation you could be fined and prevented from returning to Taiwan to a period of time. In most cases though, people breaching contracts here just forfeit some wages.
My advice, don't enter into a contract with a school unless you are sure that you can last out the year. If you have any concerns then don't sign. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:37 am Post subject: |
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Firstly recruiters are not your friends, it is a finiancial arrangement & no more.
Your question is can you move from one job to another. I believe that you can now. Say you come over and get an ARC with a school then want to change. You go to the second school and get that school added to your ARC (without the knowledge of the first school). After this is completed you can either resign from the first school without consequences or decide to work both.
I'm no expert mind, so I hope someone else corrects me or fills in the blanks. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:12 am Post subject: |
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| I'm no expert mind, so I hope someone else corrects me or fills in the blanks. |
That is pretty close to way the new policy is being implemented, however there are still some areas of Taiwan that will not allow you transfer your ARC. Tainan comes to mind right off the bat and some employers in Taichung have managed to use their influence to get teacher's ARC's revoked when they quit. Keep in mind that corruption tends to dominate policy implementation in many areas of Taiwan. These are the exceptions that I know of but I am sure there are more.
Good luck.
A. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| I recommend the original poster visit www.tealit.com to find out exact answers to the "theoretical" questions asked. They have a banner ad dealing with this issue. The procedures have all changed recently. Employers are no longer involved in the ARC transfer process per se. Ministry Of Education blacklists are no longer in effect because they are no longer involved in the issuing of ARCs. A lot of changes. I'm not sure what to make of them myself. Anyway, yes you can leave a job if it doesn't work out. |
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mayjay
Joined: 07 Aug 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject: |
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to those who answered my question I thank you kindly  |
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Rice Paddy Daddy
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 4:27 pm Post subject: |
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First, my understanding is that ARC's can no longer be transferred from an old school to a new one.
Second, you can change jobs fairly easily.
My old school recently accepted my resignation and filed a stamped letter with the Exectuive Yuan / Ministry of Labour. I did not complete my contract at the old school.
My new school also applied to the Ministry of Labour for my new work permit.
I then go to the Foreign Affairs Police and have them amend my ARC to reflect the change in my employment status with the new school.
I just got my work permit today form the Ministry of Labour.
So, it looks like quitting a job mid contract won't necessarily be such a difficult process. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Sounds like the changes have yielded some positive results. It's about time we got treated like educators and not endentured slaves to contracts and employers. |
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Ki
Joined: 23 Jul 2004
Posts: 475
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| Posted: Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Recruiters cannot issue you an ARC (despite their claims otherwise). The school does this. About 99% of teachers who go through recruiters quit for one reason or another. Recruiters are aware of this and put in place measures to avoid teachers doing this and to penalise them when they do it.
Paying teachers two weeks after their pay is due, forcing teachers to subtract an (illegal) bond from their pay, puting clauses in the teachers' contracts to penalise further pay if they quit are the more obvious measures. Then recruiters go out of the way to penalise teachers when they do quit such as trying to get the school to cancel their ARC and blacklist teachers. In my experience it is not the school the seeks vengence on a teacher but the recruiter (via the school).
These are my statistics from the people I know who have used a recruiter in Taiwan. I know of only one person who completed his contract (six months) and he go screwed over with his last month's pay anyway.
Recruiters have a lot more experience of playing this game than you do. You don't have to sign a one year contract with them. Go over and work illegally, via means of being a Mandarin student, and suss out a job for a couple of months first. Then if it feels good let them sign you an ARC.
Ki. |
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