Job Discussion Forums

[The G-stringed Avenger]

So the majority of Australians exercised their democratic right to vote for the party of their choice - and you don't agree with the result. Well whoop-dee-doo-dah, that means you're ashamed to be an Aussie? Come on, referring to the voters as stupid becasue you don't agree with their views is a bit harsh.

I'm stuck in the uneviable position of hating both of the major parties. There is no difference between them. Latham is a master of the knee-jerk reaction to whatever happens to be the issue on the front page of his morning paper. He talks the talk, but that's all. Howard - well, enough said. Why oh why isn't there a third way?

The convict thing has been done to death. The Children Overboard saga - well, the children went overboard didn't they? Why? Cause their responsible mummies and daddies set fire to their boat. What's the fuss? John Howard is guilty of semantics, but fundamentally, his version of the facts was correct. Children deliberately forced overboard. End of story, and the fact that it reared it's head in this campaign is an indication of the desperation of the opposition. Iraq - well, I doubt Labor would've had the balls to stand up to George any more than Howard did. Bring on the 3rd way, I say!

[sojourner]

Avenger,

In your opinion, what sort of political philosophy or/and policy agenda would constitute a genuine '3rd way' ?

You should be very careful about talking about a '3rd way' as representing some sort of viable alternative to the sorts of things being espoused by the major political parties and their backers. You mentioned Mark Latham - well, that particular gentleman has written a book on the need for a '3rd way', between old-style economic regulation and the 'unrestricted free market'. Bill Clinton and Tony Blair have also voiced support for a '3rd way'.Thus, it would appear that the term '3rd way' is merely a term coined by the major ( 'centre-left' ) parties' spin doctors.

However, if by '3rd way',you have something different in mind from what Blair/Clinton/Latham are advocating, then what would it be ? Do you have in mind the sort of economic system (low growth, 'environmental sustainability', 'small is beautiful' ) that many Greens and Democrats often appear to be advocating ?

Peter

[atomic_donut]

Avenger, I do agree with your point about Mark Latham. All his talk about supporting humanism as an alternative to what Howard offered just didn't wash with the public in the end. The ALP risks alienating a lot of supporters here following the most recent fall-out. Perhaps what they need is to introduce a Survivor-style system in the caucus. But regarding the children overboard saga, like so many other issues, regardless of which side of politics is responsible, there was a lot of lead-up incidents leading to the incidents that we were shown that were not aired. In looking at all of the facts, that could have made some difference. However, at the end of the day, it probably would not have affected the election outcome. Well, we now have to accept the outcome, and no matter how much voters do or do not like it, it's what we've got. With the Libs having a senate majority, double disillusion triggers are going to be highly unlikely, unless a lot of disaffected Liberal or National Party members cross the floor.

Imagine Family First providing an extremely religiously focussed third way, in their influential position in the senate, that we were all hoping would never reach Australian shores. Melbourne's Age had a major spread on them over the weekend.

[Tonester]

Well, in regards to both Howard and Latham the impression I got was that in the end it all came down to experience and who could be trusted to run the economy. Latham's previous tenure as Liverpool mayor damaged his chances but I must say; he certainly knows what to say. He says things pleasing to the public's ear and good on him! Unfortunately people didn't believe that he could live up to those promises he made.

As for Howard; well he certainly has damaged the reputation of Australia and reduced Australia's image to one of a US-lapdog and no doubt done many things to anger the Australian people but it was his experience as a politician and the issue of competent economic management that forms part of the reason for his re-election.

For the record: I think I've been crossed off the roll as I did not vote. The reason is because the nearest Australian Consulate was too far away. I either would have had to have gone to the Embassy Tokyo or the Consulate in Nagoya and both places were too far for me to go just to vote (2 hour Shinkansen ride). It would have been a different story if I was actually living in or near Tokyo.
Besides, I wouldn't have wanted to vote anyway as it was going to be either Latham or Howard; my vote wouldn't have changed anything...........

[mcNug]

The reason Howard got elected again, is I'm quite sure due to the economy. And if a majority of people did indeed vote for him due to the economy and are willing to overlook the evil thing that arse kissing little liar has done just for the economy shows a great selfishness that both sickens and saddens me.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

By a 3rd way, I meant that since Labor is on the left and the Coalition on the right, why isn't there some sort of centre-oriented party combining the best of both sides? Perhaps this is a pipe dream. I really think the 2-party system is a failure.

[atomic_donut]

According to the Australian Electorate Commission, there were around 880,000 informal votes...not just from people who accidentally making mistakes in not numbering boxes correctly, but deliberate acts, with instances of some ballot papers not being filled out at all, messages left on the back of ballot cards or even pictures of male genitalia drawn where the candidates were listed...if we had a "first past the post" system, I wonder what effect this would have had, rather than using the preferntial numbering system currently in place.

[sojourner]

David,

I'm a little confused about your most recent post on the issue of the high number of informal votes. Do you think that there is some sort of correlation between voting systems and the incidence of informal voting ? If so, what do you think it is ? If there were to be a 'first past the post' system, there would still be a need for ballot papers, albeit probably a bit smaller than the ones currently used, on account of the spaces for preference boxes. So, having smaller ballot papers would not necessarily discourage alienated voters from spoiling their ballot papers ! Or, are you suggesting that the need to allocate preferences might confuse a lot of people, who become so disoriented by that formidable task that they automatically start to write inane comments on their papers ?

If a 'first past the post system was ever to be instituted within Australia, the incidence of informal voting would probably increase. Why ? Feelings of voter alienation and apathy would increase, as people would soon realise that not only could a major party win an overwhelming number of seats that are not truly reflective of their electoral support; but also the realisation that registering a 'protest vote' , through voting for independents and minor parties, is a 'wasted vote'. The system currently used for House of Representatives elections, as well as for the states' Lower Houses, except in Tasmania, is far from perfect - however, a 'protest vote' for an independent or a minor party is not strictly a 'wasted vote' as one's preferences can still make a difference to the final outcome, should one's first choice be unsuccessful. The voting system for the Senate is entirely different - as it is based upon a variant of Proportional Representation, a minor party that can get a quota of votes, even if as a result of a 'flow on' of preferences, can get their person elected.

A few weeks ago, you mentioned something about NZ. That country has an interesting system called Mixed Member Proportional (MMP) based, I believe, on the system used in Germany - it appears to be a combination of 'first past the post' and Proportional Representation. Even if a minor party is unable to win a constituency seat, provided that the party wins, I think, about 5% of the total votes cast for the whole country, it will be allocated seats under the Party List system .Thus, you have some MPs who represent single-member constituencies, and others who represent their party rather an electoral/geographical area.

Avenger,

You mentioned the need for a '3rd party' or '3rd force'. The best way for an effective '3rd force' to emerge would be to have some sort of Proportional Representational electoral system, such as the MMP system discussed above. Of course, parties representing a '3rd way' have existed in 'first past the post systems, and have even won seats, such as with the Liberals and Lib-Dems in the UK - but many people who may happen to agree with Lib-Dem philosophy and policy, will not vote for them as the feel that their vote would 'be wasted' on account of the electoral system.

Many minor parties over the years have all professed to be advocates of a '3rd way'. eg, in Australia, during the 50s and 60s, the Democratic Labor Party (DLP) often argued that it represented an alternative to the 'socialism' of the ALP, and the pro-big business stance of the Liberal-Country Coalition. More recently, the Australian Democrats have often talked about an alternative to the politics of vested interests as represented by the major parties. The Greens often talk about the need for an alternative to the 'pro-growth' economic policies of the major parties.

One of my interests is the study of archaic economic and political theories ! Recently, I did a Web search on current organisations that advocate the ideas of C.H. Douglas ('social credit') and Henry George ('single tax'). In many cases, these organisations are saying that they are advocating what they see as their, respective, '3rd way' alternative to the, 'pro-international banking' and 'pro-monopoly' approaches of mainstream parties.

Yes, we do need a genuine '3rd force' in politics ! But are ordinary people really concerned with political ideals ? Most people, probably about 80% of the voting public in Australia, are content to vote for one, or the other, of the two major parties, regardless of policies and political philosophies. However, those minor 3rd parties that happen to win some seats, can still make a difference in the policy-making process (parliamentary debates, committee work, etc), through providing an input that has not been influenced by the usual forms of political socialisation typical of the major parties; especially those that are facilitated through traditional 'old boy' networks, loyalty to one's 'mates', and appeals to party tradition and mythology.


Peter

[Aramas]

I get really annoyed when I hear people prattle on about 'economic management skills'. Australia is a satellite economy that rides on the coat-tails of it's major trading partners. Every cycle of growth and recession directly reflects the global economy, so either our politicians are so influential that they drive the entire world economy, or they're a bunch of ineffectual tossers who do little more than strut and preen. It would seem that the Australian public are both selfish and stupid.

I recently read that our beloved fuhrer refused a request from the UN to provide forces in Iraq to protect the UN compound. Uncle George must have told Johnny not to play with those UN sissies. Besides, torturing and murdering civilians must be much more fun.

I really have to get out of this c*nt of a country asap. As soon as I get the nod from my doctor, I'm gone.

[atomic_donut]

Hi Peter,

There would probably be instances of people who genuinely wanted to vote but did not fill out the ballots correctly, and many more people who were not satisfied with the quality of candidates they had to choose from and felt that this was the only chance their message could be heard, at the expense of having their vote counted. At the end of the day, the ability to get a perfect system is difficult. We hear so often about how proud we are of living in a free and fair democracy, yet what is the point when it is abused or not properly understood, or mainpulated to a particular advantage? Albert Langer (an anti-Vietnam protestor with a reputation of being a great debater) issued "how to vote for neither party" cards and was charged. Maybe Fat Pizza had it right when there was a scene of George W. Bush telephoning Prime Minister John Howard while at a western Sydney pizzeria and asking him to honk like a piglet for "the sake of democracy and the free world."

[The G-stringed Avenger]

Australia rides on the coat-tails of its major trading partners, hmm? Let's see, Japan has been in terminal recession for 12 years now - and Australia? Going from strength to strength. Then there was the 1997 Asian financial crisis that wrecked the economies of the tiger nations - and Australia? Virtually unscathed, despite our heavy engagement with the region. Something to be said for Howard and his boys after all. If the Australian people choose not to starve or struggle, then it's not your place to be calling them stupid. I laugh at how the "free-thinking, champions-of- the-underdog liberals" of the left are among the most intolerant when it comes to opinions they disagree with. And yet claim to support freedom of speech. Extremism on either side does not allow for freedom of anything.

[Aramas]

I'll take the advice of your signature. It's very selfless and thoughtful of you to provide it.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

Hisss!

Yes, people with no comeback will often claim to be above the argument....

Have a nice day!

[Winmar]

Children Overboard has been shown to be a complete load of crap. Howard lied - end of story.

I'm also embarrassed to be Australian; things are going to get a whole lot worse from July 1 next year.

[deezy]

Okay, confession time again: I've been a bona fide Aussie for 14 years now and never voted. (I was and still am a Brit cos I have dual nationality.) My friends (even the Aussies) call the getting of Aussie Citizenship "having the frontal lobotomy". Maybe that's why, once I got to be able to vote, I took one look at the ballot papers and found them so confusing I decided not to bother. And yes I know I'm due for countless fines if I'm found out!

I love Australia. I love the Australian way of life. I love my Aussie mates. I can't think of a better place to live, and I've lived in many countries including America. Australia is my adopted home; if Australia and England are playing cricket, I'm for Australia. When I'm in England visiting family, I'm homesick for Australia.

As far as politics go, for me it's a pretty basic girl thing... I don't like Howard because he never makes eye contact when he talks and that to me is indicative of a sneaky lying creep. As for his policies...I talk to people who are much more knowledgeable than myself, and the general concensus is he won on interest rates...economic issues. Lots of people have high mortgages, and can still remember the horrors of the early nineties when interest rates were 15% or so.

As for going into Iraq; I have a friend who was in the SAS for years (in fact he told me you never 'leave' the SAS, not quite sure what he meant) but is now a consultant to the SAS on Middle East issues, and he's told me that there were certain underlying reasons, not general knowledge, why Australia supported America...it was a payback situation for America's support in a very sticky Indonesian issue.

I don't see Australia as a perfect place. I disagree vehemently with the way the asylum seekers are treated. There are children who have spent years, yes years, in the camps. The health system needs a revamp, the education system is naff, the universities have to support themselves virtually which means they take on students who really can't cut the mustard, but can pay the dollars. There are mafia type gangs in Melbourne killing each other. I could go on...

But when I went to my nationalisation ceremony, I was the only person in a roomful of people who was there because I was invited to come to Australia for a job. Every other person looked as if they were at the end of a long long road to freedom. The official said when handing out the precious Citizenship certificate "Now you will never have to be afraid of the knock on your door". And that's true. (Unless it's the bailiff or the Mormons).

And although the 'dole' is not much to live on, or sickness benefit, whatever, at least no one needs to starve there. And if you really get sick, with something serious, the public hospitals are still the best places to go...even if the ambulance has to radio around for one to accept you! The paramedics are amazing, they saved my husband's life right outside our house. In some countries there's no treatment unless you have money. In England I had to make an appointment two weeks ahead to see a GP. In Australia I can see one real quick.

Oh...and one more thing...my grandson is half Jamaican, and in London he suffered racism not only from whites but from blacks...the parents of the black children even encouraged their children. In Australia he's just another kid.

Australia has been good to me.