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A.K.A.T.D.N.
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 170
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 Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:37 am Post subject: Evidence for Wombat About Deceptive Practices. . . |
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Evidence, Wombat?
Wombat, check out the next contract you sign, or contracts that have Chinese interpretations over-riding English ones.
Wombat, ever take a look on Dave's Job Information Journal in Taiwan? Take a look at this article: 'Most Views About Taiwan Agreed Upon.' Take a look at the journal yourself, it speaks of people like you here rather highly.
Wombat, what about offering jobs to foreingers without an ARC and then have you get paid NT60,000 tax-free because they're deceiving immigration by telling them you're only earning NT30,000?
Wombat, what about the thousands UPON thousands of foreigners in Taiwan who couldn't give a hoot about your little world of wisdom here JUST BECAUSE SOME OF THEM, BY GOLLY, have found themselves made fools of time and time again, and this by some of the following means:
Having you sign a contract, and then giving you a 60 day probation period and a large amount of time in which they can fire you without stipulating why for the littlest of reasons?
Have you look at a contract, agree upon it, and then switch contracts and have you sign another.
Agree to a sum of money to be paid for in a contract and find out the sum is less than what you were offered.
Are not just some of these a drop in the ocean as to "deceptive business practices to deceive people" in order for dishonest gain?
You must be one of those beetle nuts the Chinese have spit out and formed into a blotch here. |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 5:50 am Post subject: |
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| Ignore him and he shall go away (eventually), answer him and he shall be around for ever. And you will also make yourselves look nearly as barking mad as he quite obviously is. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 6:48 am Post subject: |
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Finally an A.K.A.T.D.N. post with some meat on it! Well allow me to retort!
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Evidence, Wombat? |
Firstly, none of the stuff that you have posted above actually comprises evidence. It is just the same old babble that people such as yourself and the other bunch of clowns I mentioned on the other thread babble out from time to time. I notice the lack of references to your own personal experiences, and the almost total reliance upon the supposed experiences of others through hearsay and posts on the internet.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Wombat, check out the next contract you sign, or contracts that have Chinese interpretations over-riding English ones. |
I have lived in both China and Taiwan, and it is standard practice for legaly binding contracts to be written in Chinese and then translated into English. In the majority of cases, a good contract will have a clause within it that states something to the effect of, 'in the case of a dispute between the Chinese and English versions of this contract, the Chinese version shall prevail'. Effectively this means that although you are most likely reading the English version, you are for all intents and purposes signing agreement to the Chinese version.
People such as yourself often suggest that these circumstances are unjust and somehow an indication of dishonesty. In fact this practice has solid foundations and is in fact extremely reasonable, and even expected for the following reasons:
1. Taiwan companies (including schools offering employment to foreign teachers) are under no obligation whatsoever to furnish you with an English version of the Chinese contract. The fact that they do so, saves you the hassle of having to drag a Taiwanese friend along to check the Chinese wording, or pay a lawyer to do this on your behalf. In many contractual situations outside employment by schools, such as lease contacts on property, contracts on phone services, receipts, and the like, there is no English version readily available. You either need to sign blindly or make arrangements to have someone translate the terms so that you can understand them. This would be true in the case of foreign nationals living and working in the country that you come from. Regardles of where they were from, or how good their English was, they would be required to sign an employment contract in English as that is what the law requires there. The same is true here in Taiwan, just in reverse. In both cases it is up to the individual to decide on a course of action, and the employer is under no legal nor moral obligation to supply a translated version of the contract. The fact is that most schools do have their employment contracts translated into English as this is what the market demands, but it is up to you to ensure that the English version you are reading is an accurate representation of the Chinese version from which it is drawn. In my personal experiences, I have never found any conflicts in the contracts that I have signed.
2. As the jurisdiction for the settling of any claims against the contract is the Taiwan court system, and as Manadarin Chinese is the official language of the country in which this arbirtration would occur, then it is only common sense that contracts written Chinese are preferable to any other language - including English. There would be no point in having contracts written in a language other than Chinese as it is highly likely that many of the clerks etc. involved in processing the dispute would not be fluent enough to interpret the language, and as a result mistakes would be made. By having a contract in Chinese you are ensuring that your contract of employment will be supported by the system that is in place to protect the rights of workers.
3. The employment contract that you sign is more than likely based upon the Employment Services Act, which is also a Chinese document. Naturally, a contract written in Chinese will more accurately reflect the terms of the Act, and less discrepancies are likely to arise. Once again you are better protected with a Chinese contract, provided that the English is an accurate representation of the Chinese.
4. In many cases the owner of the school or employer are not proficient in English, nor do they need to be. They are, afterall, running a business in Taiwan, for Taiwanese people, and they just happen to be running a business that teaches English and requires English teachers. Under these circumstances they are hardly likely to draw up an all English contract as they may not understand this. If you were the owner of a company back home and you were employing Chinese nationals to work for you, I doubt that you would put your paw print on a contract that was all written in Chinese regardless of the concerns of the Chinese staff that you were employing. I think it reasonable to see this through the eyes of the employer.
5. As foreigners we all choose to come here to Taiwan even though English is not the national language. In fact if English were the national language and contracts etc. were all written in English then the majority of us would be out of work, as they just wouldn't need us. The fact that Chinese is the national language here guarantees many of us work, and the downside to this is that we really need to communicate in that language. If we choose not to learn Chinese, then we can't very fairly hold our employers accountable when misunderstandings arise.
6. We are all adults and we all need to accept responsibility for any decisions that we may make in life. The decision as to whether or not to sign a certain contract is yours and only yours. If you are not confident that the English version accurately represents the Chinese version, no matter how good the pay or conditions may be, then you need to exercise caution and either have the document checked or decide not to sign. In agreeing to sign, you are agreeing to the terms. This is where I would think that the large cram schools are an advantage to newcomers. You know that the English translation of their contracts is accurate and you can therefore concentrate on more pressing matters.
7. Finally, if any foreigner ever found themselves in a situation where the English version of the contract was clearly different from the Chinese and such differences caused problems, then there is mediation available to resolve these disputes.
Just remember that the English translation is nothing more than a courtesy to the fact that in almost all cases the individuals signing the contracts cannot understand Chinese. In most cases there are no major differences, and it is misleading to suggest that the Chinese version of the contract is somehow used to deceive foreigners.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Wombat, ever take a look on Dave's Job Information Journal in Taiwan? Take a look at this article: 'Most Views About Taiwan Agreed Upon.' Take a look at the journal yourself, it speaks of people like you here rather highly. |
Actually funny that you mention the Information Journal. Here is my take on the posts found there:
a) 30% can be disregarded immeadiately as being nothing more than a rant.
b) 20% could be considered as legitimate problems.
c) 20% can be considered as legitimate recommendations.
d) the remaining 60% can be ignored as they are posted anonymously, or the email addresses that are posted do not exist.
NB: How do I know this? Well, I recently sent emails to almost every post that had an email contact. About 80% of these bounced back as undeliverable as the accounts did not exist.
Considering that only about 1 in 10 people will make a recommendation about a service or company, while maybe 4 in 10 would make a complaint, we can consider that for every complaint posted on that board, there are four recommendations that never get posted. This doesn't even take into account the individuals that are satisfied but neither wish to make a complaint nor a recommendation. This last group is of course where the majority of the thousands of teachers working here in Taiwan fall.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Wombat, what about offering jobs to foreingers without an ARC and then have you get paid NT60,000 tax-free because they're deceiving immigration by telling them you're only earning NT30,000? |
You mentioned this before and I corrected you. Now you mention it again, so I will correct you once more. The immigration authorities here in Taiwan have absolutely nothing to do with your employment conditions here in Taiwan. The relevant departments for employment of foreign teachers would be the Ministry of Education (MOE), Council of Labor Affairs (CLA), and Ministry of Foreign Affairs (MOFA), and to a lesser extent the Foreign Affairs Police (FAP). Your continued mention of the Immigration authorities in this regard really saps any credibility that your post may have had.
Any school offering a job to you without an ARC is offering you illegal employment. If you choose to work illegally then you are choosing to work outside the realm of the law. The law does not protect you as the law does not recognise you. You have very, very few rights if you choose to work illegally, and this is why individuals who choose to work illegally are so vulnerable. Any employer willing to employ you illegally knows this, and this is why the majority of the 'legitimate' complaints that I mentioned above are actually made by people who are working illegally. How do I know this - well you need to read bewteen the lines!
When the complainant says that they took a job offering eight hours a week, then they were illegal as 14 hours a week is the legal minimum.
When the complainant says that they were working in a kindergarten then they were working illegally as foreigners cannot legally work in kindergartens.
When the complainant says that they were working without a contract then they are working illegally as you need a contract to work legally.
When the complainant says that they were working on their student visa then they were working illegally.....get the picture.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Having you sign a contract, and then giving you a 60 day probation period and a large amount of time in which they can fire you without stipulating why for the littlest of reasons? |
This is standard back home from memory and cuts two ways in most cases. Most teaching contracts have a probationary period to give the school a chance to see whether you are suitable and give you are chance to see whether or not you like the school and the work. This is a good idea. Are you suggesting that it would be better to be a full one year committment regardless of whether the tecaher sucked, or the school was bad. Surely the options should be kept open.
In a case where a teacher gets let go during this period, who cares why you were let go. Obviously the employer had a problem with you, whatever that problem may have been. So what! The suggestion that A.K.A.T.D.N. seems to be making is that his being fired under these circumstances was unjust and that he was doing a great job. Well if you were not at fault A.K.A.T.D.N., then you should have no trouble securing another job elsewhere. Get over it and go out and find another job. Surely though, if you are a good teacher, and are co-operative then you will find that the last thing the school will want to do is let you go. I was never a 'super teacher' but I was never let go. I just turned up on time, tried to be nice to everyone, and did my best in the classroom. Afterall that is all any school wants so why don't you just give this a try and see if that helps you avoid the problems you have encountered both here and in Korea.
What possible reason would a school have to hire teachers and get rid of them in the first couple of months, unless of course the teacher had a bad attitude and/or sucked at teaching. Does any of this ring a bell with you A.K.A.T.D.N.?
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Have you look at a contract, agree upon it, and then switch contracts and have you sign another. |
No, but then I still don't see the problem. If the contract a school wants you to sign is different than the one that you agreed to sign, then you just don't sign it. This is pretty fundamental stuff - I mean we are talking Law 101 here. The school can't make you sign a contract that you don't want to sign. I am guessing that despite the switch you still signed and are now regretting it. Geez, what an idiot!!
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Agree to a sum of money to be paid for in a contract and find out the sum is less than what you were offered. |
Again I have never heard from a reliable source of this happening, but even if it did I still fail to see the problem.
a) If you haven't already signed then you walk away and find another job that does offer the money that you want.
b) If you have already signed and they pay you less than what the contract stipulates then seek mediation with the authorities. It is FREE afterall and you WILL receive a favorable outcome.
c) If on the otherhand you agree to the changes by signing the contract anyway, then you have no gripe as you agreed to the lower wage from the outset of the contract.
Once again I am guessing that you went for c).
Sorry, A.K.A.T.D.N. but I just don't see how you can justify a claim that the majority of Chinese are dishonest from the above.
It reads more like someone who has very little cultural understanding of living and working in a foreign country. It seems that you may not be cut out for being here. Maybe you should just cut your perceived losses and head on back home.
NB: I have edited my original post slightly to make the text more readable as I realize that this post is a long one. Cheers!
Last edited by wombat on Sat Oct 16, 2004 9:16 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Sat Oct 16, 2004 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| Another excellent post wombat, that cleared up a lot of issues. |
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A.K.A.T.D.N.
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 5:54 am Post subject: |
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THis post doesn't comprise of evidence? Othere have rambled on about these aspects of working here? What, do you want to meet me face to face and have you walk in my shoes then, show you my experiences and contracts to curtail all doubts?
A contract written in Chinese is just so that Chinese may override your English understanding of it all, meaning nothing anti-contract can be settled outside of CHinese law. This, to me, seems like a joke, since you know they've got the power to breach the contract in favor of their own wording and this by using such wording as "Any. . . .discrepancies against the herein contract's stated requirements and regulations should be suspect to legal measure taken up by CHinese language and law!!" BUt it doesn't stipulate exactly what this law is in light of foreigners, so you're stuck between a gavel and a CHinese judge, or the power of the school itself for abusing your rights and your non-entitiy existence!
THen they fire you for something outside of the contract, which makes you even weaker!!
If this one aspect doesn't sum up some of the experience related to deceptive practices I don't know what does. Maybe you've got Chinese backing, but it really doesn't matter to me. WE SIGN CONTRACTS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIND A POINT OF TRUST, not a point to be held suspect for the littlest and biased of deceptive practices such as firing a young girl because she happened to criticize the use of a text book to the supervisor and thus was fired for speaking her mind!!
THink about all of the businessmen, like the guy from Australia who had millions of tons of lobster sent here, had them stolen, and than had the CHinese tell them "the lobster were no good. We threw them out."
Of course his insurance covered it all. BUt. . . .Someonme deceived him, not he someone else.
THen, like I said some of these schools scamming on income tax or by having you sign a letter telling them you said it was okay for them to open a bank account, since you don['t have an ARC, making you the guilty party, is just outlandish. THey don['t wan't to get caught. They've got yot you as the fallguy, and they know it.
BUt oooooooh, try to stand up for yourself in light of legal law or a real conract!! hah, what a laugh. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:49 pm Post subject: |
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| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| A contract written in Chinese is just so that Chinese may override your English understanding of it all, meaning nothing anti-contract can be settled outside of CHinese law. This, to me, seems like a joke, since you know they've got the power to breach the contract in favor of their own wording and this by using such wording as "Any. . . .discrepancies against the herein contract's stated requirements and regulations should be suspect to legal measure taken up by CHinese language and law!!" BUt it doesn't stipulate exactly what this law is in light of foreigners, so you're stuck between a gavel and a CHinese judge, or the power of the school itself for abusing your rights and your non-entitiy existence! |
You are assuming of course that schools pay money to a lawyer to draw up a contract that somehow disadvantages you (the foreigner) all so that they can rip you off a grand total of NTD12,000. You are kidding right!
You chose to come to Taiwan. No one made you come here. You came here knowing that the official language was not English, and you may have even known that the official language was Chinese. What exactly is the problem with a Chinese employer based in Taiwan requesting that you sign a contract written in Chinese? Remember that you were not forced to sign the contract. It was offered to you and if you didn't agree then you had every right to walk away. Apparently you chose to sign it and now you are crying over spilt milk.
This is no evidence of wrongdoing on behalf of the Chinese. This is evidence or an unreasonable foreigner.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THen they fire you for something outside of the contract, which makes you even weaker!! |
What exactly did you get fired for? What was the reason that the school gave you? What do you think the REAL reason was? As Taoyuan Steve says, it is next to impossible to get fired from a teaching job here in Taiwan. The fact that you got fired doesn't shed your employer in a bad light, but certainly doesn't say anything about you.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| WE SIGN CONTRACTS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIND A POINT OF TRUST |
No, we sign employment contracts because we want the money that comes with doing the work that we sign up to do.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THen, like I said some of these schools scamming on income tax or by having you sign a letter telling them you said it was okay for them to open a bank account, since you don['t have an ARC, making you the guilty party, is just outlandish. THey don['t wan't to get caught. They've got yot you as the fallguy, and they know it. |
This is extremely confusing. Do you care to explain the point that you are attempting to make above? I don't understand how the school scammed on income tax by opening a bank account. You have posted this claim on a number of occasions but have never sufficiently explained what the hell you are talking about. Your lack of clarity on this issue is not a ringing endorsement of the validity of your claim!
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| BUt oooooooh, try to stand up for yourself in light of legal law or a real conract!! hah, what a laugh. |
I have and I have won. I know of others who have stood up for themselves and won too.
What action did you take against the travesty of justice that you claim you have been the victim of? Other than posting rants here on this very board, what concrete actions have you taken to prove yourself right and the system or even just the school wrong? |
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A.K.A.T.D.N.
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| wombat wrote: |
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| A contract written in Chinese is just so that Chinese may override your English understanding of it all, meaning nothing anti-contract can be settled outside of CHinese law. This, to me, seems like a joke, since you know they've got the power to breach the contract in favor of their own wording and this by using such wording as "Any. . . .discrepancies against the herein contract's stated requirements and regulations should be suspect to legal measure taken up by CHinese language and law!!" BUt it doesn't stipulate exactly what this law is in light of foreigners, so you're stuck between a gavel and a CHinese judge, or the power of the school itself for abusing your rights and your non-entitiy existence! |
You are assuming of course that schools pay money to a lawyer to draw up a contract that somehow disadvantages you (the foreigner) all so that they can rip you off a grand total of NTD12,000. You are kidding right!
You chose to come to Taiwan. No one made you come here. You came here knowing that the official language was not English, and you may have even known that the official language was Chinese. What exactly is the problem with a Chinese employer based in Taiwan requesting that you sign a contract written in Chinese? Remember that you were not forced to sign the contract. It was offered to you and if you didn't agree then you had every right to walk away. Apparently you chose to sign it and now you are crying over spilt milk.
This is no evidence of wrongdoing on behalf of the Chinese. This is evidence or an unreasonable foreigner.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THen they fire you for something outside of the contract, which makes you even weaker!! |
What exactly did you get fired for? What was the reason that the school gave you? What do you think the REAL reason was? As Taoyuan Steve says, it is next to impossible to get fired from a teaching job here in Taiwan. The fact that you got fired doesn't shed your employer in a bad light, but certainly doesn't say anything about you.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| WE SIGN CONTRACTS BECAUSE WE HAVE TO FIND A POINT OF TRUST |
No, we sign employment contracts because we want the money that comes with doing the work that we sign up to do.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THen, like I said some of these schools scamming on income tax or by having you sign a letter telling them you said it was okay for them to open a bank account, since you don['t have an ARC, making you the guilty party, is just outlandish. THey don['t wan't to get caught. They've got yot you as the fallguy, and they know it. |
This is extremely confusing. Do you care to explain the point that you are attempting to make above? I don't understand how the school scammed on income tax by opening a bank account. You have posted this claim on a number of occasions but have never sufficiently explained what the hell you are talking about. Your lack of clarity on this issue is not a ringing endorsement of the validity of your claim!
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| BUt oooooooh, try to stand up for yourself in light of legal law or a real conract!! hah, what a laugh. |
I have and I have won. I know of others who have stood up for themselves and won too.
What action did you take against the travesty of justice that you claim you have been the victim of? Other than posting rants here on this very board, what concrete actions have you taken to prove yourself right and the system or even just the school wrong? |
Contracts should be interpreted in light of your own native tongue. At least, that is, so you can understand it.
I never a once saw this otherwise in Korea and that after having been there for over 6 years.
TO say such a thing as "The CHinese interpretation of this contract will. . ." etc, makes you feel that they're not abiding by the law, but by a biased sense of justice.
No, I didn't come here to expect this. Would you!!? And would you really go to a lawyer ater having signed a contract and having the manager switch it on you? THe good speaking skills of this lady saying "AKX" instead of "ASK" made me think twice about her stupidity, and mine.
THis school lost three teachers during my interim. No one likes a liar.
Oh, I didn't get fired, remember?!! I quit because they wanted me to work there illegally. And you don't want a point of trust? What about hours and overtime pay, of work conditions and what not?!! Money is of major concern, as long as it computes with the work environment.
About income tax. They simly pay you more without having to pay tax, thus getting more for their money. It's simly tax evasion, and they know it, even telling you "But you can't tell anyone about this. . .etc."
Last edited by A.K.A.T.D.N. on Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:32 am; edited 3 times in total |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 6:27 am Post subject: |
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| No. Contracts ought to be written in national language of the country in which they are to be enforced. You quite rightly would expect immigrants to America to learn English. Translations, however, are available for the convenience of those unable to read English. The original, however, would be written in English and that would be the one enforced in courts. The same applies here. Mandarin Chinese is the national language here. For a contract to be legal, it must be written in Chinese. Translations are usually provided FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE but they are not the legally enforceable version. If you doubt the translation of a contract, don't sign or get a Chinese friend to check it. Really. You're not in the states. Don't expect this country to revolve around your linguistic needs. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 9:54 am Post subject: |
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| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Contracts should be interpreted in light of your own native tongue. At least, that is, so you can understand it. |
You really have three choices if you want to get a good understanding of any contract that you sign:
1. Stay home in an English speaking country where every contract that you are involved with is written in the native language of the country you sign it in - English.
2. Study Chinese so that you can understand what a contract that you choose to sign here in Taiwan means.
3. Employ a lawyer to translate the contract for you in an unbiased way, or at least confirm that the versions are the same.
I would just get a friend to check it though as in most cases there are no major discrepancies.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| I never a once saw this otherwise in Korea and that after having been there for over 6 years. |
Well guess what, Taiwan is not Korea. If you want to do things the way that Koreans do them then you best head back to Korea. If you want to do things the way Americans do things then head back to America. If you want to live in Taiwan then you need to understand and accept the way things are done here. To attempt anything else would be an exercise in futility and will turn you mad - as it has apparently done!
You don't have to accept any terms of living in Taiwan that are really distasteful to you. At anytime you have the right to pack your bags and head back to Kansas.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| TO say such a thing as "The CHinese interpretation of this contract will. . ." etc, makes you feel that they're not abiding by the law, but by a biased sense of justice. |
Actually, in doing so, they are abiding exactly by what the law says. In order to apply for a work permit on your behalf your employer requires a contract with you that is written in Chinese. Why is it so difficult for you to understand that the national language of a country is what all official documentation is written in?
Were the tables to be turned, you would find that exactly the same thing would be done back home if contracts were to be offered in more than one language. It is common sense really, and really does serve to protect both parties. It avoids the possibility of conflict arising over misunderstandings and misinterpretations. Were it not for the inclusion of this clause then a foreigner may unwittingly assume that the English version of the contract is very clear only to find out later that there is a dispute due to varying cultural understandings. It is far better to know upfront that you are indeed signing a Chinese contract and that the English version is just a guide to what the contract contains.
Sure it does place the onus on anyone signing a contract to ensure that thy have a full understanding of the Chinese version.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| No, I didn't come here to expect this. Would you!!? |
Actually, yes. I think that it is pretty obvious to everyone, except yourself apparently, that contracts etc. would be written in the language of the country in which you choose to work. I appreciate the fact that many of the government departments that deal with foreigners now have English speaking staff that can assist me in the language that I am most comfortable with, but I certainly don't expect it. I wonder how many languages the tax clerks back home are conversant in?
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| And would you really go to a lawyer ater having signed a contract and having the manager switch it on you? THe good speaking skills of this lady saying "AKX" instead of "ASK" made me think twice about her stupidity, and mine. |
Yes, you have said this before but you have never taken the time to explain how this is possible. How is it possible that a contract can be switched on you after you have signed it? You only signed one contract, the one that I assume you read, so how did the other contract come to have your signature on it.
My guess is that you resigned a second contract for some unknown reason, and after signing this you realized that it wasn't as positive as the first. You read, you agreed to, and you signed it - so you only have yourself to blame if it is no good.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Oh, I didn't get fired, remember?!! I quit because they wanted me to work there illegally. |
Really?!!! That was not your original story. Originally you claimed that you got fired because you were not the kind of teacher that they were looking for. Now who is the liar? You can't have quit and been fired, it must have been one or the other. AKATDN, maybe you should start being honest with yourself about all of this.
How exactly did they want you to work there illegally?
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| About income tax. They simly pay you more without having to pay tax, thus getting more for their money. It's simly tax evasion, and they know it, even telling you "But you can't tell anyone about this. . .etc." |
Obviously you would know this upfront, as I am sure that it is something such a school would brag about, 'We'll give you NTD700 an hour tax free. That's better than ABC school down the road.' So you were a willing partcipant in this little tax dodge as you saw it as being to your advantage.
The above scenario is almost non-existent in a legal school as it is somewhat more difficult for the school to cover this fact up. Also, considering that the tax rate for most new teachers is only 6%, a school offering NTD600 per hour after tax would only be offering NTD650 odd if they weren't paying taxes. It doesn't really seem worth it.
I would say that the offer by a school to help you avoid taxes should have set off the warning bells that you were dealing with a less than honest employer. If they were willing to rip off the government and society in general, what makes you think that they would have any qualms about ripping you off! Again, this is just commonsense. There are tax evaders in every country of the world, and the majority of them are low life scum. What makes you think that the tax dodgers here in Taiwan would be any different? When you dance with the devil you often get burned! |
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A.K.A.T.D.N.
Joined: 12 Jun 2004
Posts: 170
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| No. Contracts ought to be written in national language of the country in which they are to be enforced. You quite rightly would expect immigrants to America to learn English. Translations, however, are available for the convenience of those unable to read English. The original, however, would be written in English and that would be the one enforced in courts. The same applies here. Mandarin Chinese is the national language here. For a contract to be legal, it must be written in Chinese. Translations are usually provided FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE but they are not the legally enforceable version. If you doubt the translation of a contract, don't sign or get a Chinese friend to check it. Really. You're not in the states. Don't expect this country to revolve around your linguistic needs. |
I think, TS. you have some issues. One is justice. The other is being a blind follower.
A contract should be understandable for both parties. THe reason I mentioned the contract deal was because it's quite a deceptive practice here in order for the CHinese to gain the upper hand. Again, I don't care, because I did quit this job.
THe last job I got fired from. That, too, included a breach of contract. NO I DON'T CONSIDER TO GET A LAWYER!! FACT IS, THEY QUITE ALL READY KNOW THIS!! I expect contracts, however, to be legally binding for both parties and not just one side.
THis appears, is what the Taiwanese are trying to do. THey do this just to skim alittle more money from you despite legal matters. I'm really tired of this savvy, survivalhood attitude that prevails here. MOst of them have these contracts drawn to maintain their own sense of biasness, and frugality, just so they can use you and save their own skins. NT12,000 was a lot of money, particularly for the CHinese. When we had an agreement that I'd get paid NT62,000 as of September 4th, and then was deducted NT12,000 for quitting, it sounds like abuse to me, and a breach of contract. ANd the reason I quit the job was because they broke the contract by not providing me an ARC, like they originally agreed upon in the first contract. SO they outright lied, and then stuck it to me.
COUld I play Mr. Positive under such duress, like you!? I Leave such tactics of deception up to God to decide. I don't get even. But God knows this scenario, and maybe that's why Taiwan is so earthquake prone and delusional about its needs. I wouldn't blame Carter the least in letting the cat out of the bag. They've got no respect, and the Koreans know this well.
They often have trade wars and hate on another. I do not mind this, since Korea is such a protectionistic society. BUt in light of this, I do blame Taiwan for being corrupt in its business tactics, making things the proverbial, 'Made in Taiwan' cheap. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Mon Oct 25, 2004 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| I think, TS. you have some issues. One is justice. The other is being a blind follower. |
TS is not the one with issues buddy. Just look in the mirror if you want to meet someone with big issues!
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| A contract should be understandable for both parties. |
You seem to be overlooking one pretty major point here.
On one side you have your employer who is more than likely a Chinese business person who may or may not understand English. They contract a law firm to draw up an employment contract, a firm which may or may not have any staff fluent in English. The employment contract itself is based upon the standards established by the government, standards that are all drawn up in Chinese as the department that produced them may or may not have staff conversant in Chinese. All of this is done within Taiwan, a country where the national language is Chinese and not English.
On the other side you have a foreigner who decides to travel to a non-English speaking country in order to take advantage of the fact that not enough people in that country are conversant enough to teach English themselves. In some cases this foreigner chooses to arrive on Taiwan soil without knowing a single word of Mandarin, despite the fact that they know that Mandarin is the national language here.
So you have a situation where your employer can't understand English; and you can't understand Chinese. It would be impossible for these parties to sign a single contract, in a single language that both understood. The fact is that if contracts were all written in English, and everyone involved in the process was conversant enough to be able to fully understand these English contracts - then what would they need you for?!!!
So, commonsense prevailing, contracts are written in Chinese as the law and society dictates, and an English version is attached for your benefit.
Surely you are not suggesting that if an individual travelled from the country of Liechtenstein to work in the English speaking country that you come from, that all documents should be written in their language, and the employer should then study that individuals language in order to understand what exactly the contract says. That would be ridiculous, as is your suggestion that Chinese people living in Taiwan accept an English contract.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THe reason I mentioned the contract deal was because it's quite a deceptive practice here in order for the CHinese to gain the upper hand. |
What exactly is so deceptive about it? It is inline with the legal requirement of the government here. It is within the realms of commonsense. In most cases the contracts are drawn up by lawyers who have no vested interest in disadvantaging either party. In very few cases, if any, there are no major nor intentional discrepancies between the versions.
You continue to go on about how you were cheated by this deceptive practice. Please outline for everyone what exact clauses were in your contract that so disadvantaged you, and how exactly the Chinese and English versions varied to your detriment.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| Again, I don't care, because I did quit this job. |
Obviously you do care otherwise you wouldn't continue to post these claims.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| That, too, included a breach of contract. NO I DON'T CONSIDER TO GET A LAWYER!! FACT IS, THEY QUITE ALL READY KNOW THIS!! I expect contracts, however, to be legally binding for both parties and not just one side. |
What exactly was the breach?
As I have already stated, you don't really need a lawyer to check the contract. You just need a local friend to ensure that the Chinese reflects the English version.
Your choice not to seek assistance in checking the Chinese contract is yours to make. The school doesn't know this, nor do they expect it. Previously I had a job with a school here and my job was helping and interviewing applicants for our schools islandwide. It was not unusual for foreigners to bring along a friend to read over the Chinese contract - and no one ever found any points of contention as there were none.
The contract that you sign is legally binding upon both parties. It is just that it is the Chinese version that receives legal consideration.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| THis appears, is what the Taiwanese are trying to do. THey do this just to skim alittle more money from you despite legal matters. |
How exactly do employers 'fix a contract' so as to be able to skim money off the foreign teacher? I have always found employment contracts to be very fair.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| MOst of them have these contracts drawn to maintain their own sense of biasness, and frugality, just so they can use you and save their own skins. |
What do you base this claim upon?
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| NT12,000 was a lot of money, particularly for the CHinese. When we had an agreement that I'd get paid NT62,000 as of September 4th, and then was deducted NT12,000 for quitting, it sounds like abuse to me, and a breach of contract. |
Many contracts have a clause that covers penalties for premature breach. I find it very hard to believe that yours didn't, and I am almost positive that in fact it does but you are choosing not to disclose this.
In a case where there was no such clause but a penalty was levied, then you have rights under mediation. Others have done this, and you could too. Should you choose not to pursue the matter through the relevant channels then you only have yourself to blame.
| A.K.A.T.D.N. wrote: |
| ANd the reason I quit the job was because they broke the contract by not providing me an ARC, like they originally agreed upon in the first contract. SO they outright lied, and then stuck it to me. |
This is a very immature and naieve action to take. You have no legal right to choose to discontinue you an employment contract. If your employer is in breach then you can seek mediation to either resolve the issues, or be released from your contract. Once again, if you chose not to take the proper routes, then no one but yourself can be held accountable for your actions. Afterall, the school was just exercising the rights that they clearly had for your breach. If you feel that they were in breach then you should have raised this with the relevant authorities. |
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