Job Discussion Forums

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Stephen Jones]

Normally you'd have a pidgin for the first generation and a creole for the next. Of course, you might well find that the ten would break up into different cliques, and these might develop into separate languages, depending partly on how large the island was.

[texastmblwd69]

[spidey]

Natural Linguistic Evolution of Planet Earth...in other words it has become the Common Language of the Modern Era.

[Dr.J]

Well, my main point was that people in any social group gradually come to use the same words, because it just makes sense. And as countries become more closely linked and communicate more, they will gradually come to use the same terms.

As for the island thing, I suppose I thought that speaking a language consisting of a completely equal mix would be unlikely, as each person would have more or less power within the group, or be a more or less efficient communicator. So there would be a kind of 'natural selection'.

But that was just an example, I have no scientific credentials here.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

Good post, Roger.

I agree with some aspects of the article, but while English may be responsible for the endangering of certain minority languages, it will never replace major languages like Chinese or Japanese or French. Sure, these languages may become peppered with English words and phrases, but then, isn't English a "mongrel mix" of words from dozens of different languages?

English definitely should not be foisted on those who don't want to learn it. If China devoted its time and resources to training a small dedicated core of people who seriously want to learn, the result would be a smallish number of excellent speakers rather than a large number of mediocre ones.

While I think the study of English can lead to the infusion of Western ideas and culture, the CCP has been so successful in promulgating the "to be rich is good" mentality that young Chinese people are motivated when it comes to money and apathetic when it comes to politics. It's an old trick - make them rich and fat and happy and they'll have something to lose. If they have something to lose, then they won't rock the (political) boat. The whites tried to create a black middle class in South Africa in order to stave off black revolution. One could say the result in the recent Australian election is another example of economically happy people unwilling to undergo political change. In any case, the CCP sees this infusion of Western ideas as nothing serious because they know that most Chinese people will not act on them, but instead go out and make money. Do you want the nice house, car, clothes and electronics - or do you want to go through the pain and danger of trying to force political change?

The limit of this "imperialism" is the belief (hammered home constantly) that one NEEDS English and MUST learn it or the consequences will be dire. I wonder how many of my students will actually be in a situation in the future where they will really need to speak English. They're told they need it, but will they really?

[Roger]

So, G-stringed Avenger: what do you prefer - hordes and hordes of "mediocre Chinese English speakers" or "a smallish number" of high achievers in that lingo?
I tell you my choice: I prefer the elite, the small number who cares and performs. That's what China needs - China doesn't need Chinglish. No one needs it.

The need for China to use one international language was identified long ago. Now that English has been adopted, they should strive for excellence rather than quantitiy.

Those Chinglish speakers must feel pretty isolated anywhere in the world where they try to inflict their hurtful English on the locals.
Actually, Deng Xiaoping wante able to study at western schools; what we have got today is entire generations utterly unable to use what they have groomed for up to ten years. A total misallocation of funds that eventually will be seen as a colossal waste of badly needed resources.

I have just read in the SCMP Education supplement that Indians have created their own version of English; it's quaint with its old-fashioned expressions, and slightly annoying with its neologisms such as "I got stuck up (sic!) in the morning traffic jam!"
Anyway, it doesn't seem to be mangled pronunciation of English words strung together according to CHinese grammar.
THere are reportedly 350 million Hinglish speakers; in sharp contrast to Chinglish, they use it every among themselves. India being an IT nation, their English stands a more than reasonable chance of penetrating mainstream English via the Internet.
Think about this: Hinglish will perhaps one day be on a par with British English and American English, while Chinglish will always be an outsider.

[voodikon]

[Atlas]

Just had a student asking me about learning Chinese. She basically assumed it was too difficult for westerners to learn.

I say it's difficult to understand without any study. And that the economic potential isn't great enough to polarize action for many westerners.

Yes it's very different in structure. But more likely than her assumption is that it is not economically necessary to expend the amount of energy it takes to learn Chinese. A person can get a long fine with a rudimentary understanding of the language, we can still get jobs.

I'm not here because I couldn't get a job back home. I stepped down a rung or two to accept this career just out of desire, not necessity. Learning the language would be a leisure activity for me.

[Nauczyciel]

Rogers and others who think it's better to have "the elite" of proficient non-native English speakers as opposed to "hordes" of mediocre ones - this is just the typical collonialist attitude. So you do not want other people to flaw your mother tongue, no, you will only deign to talk to the ones who "care and perform"... In case you don't know, colonialism belongs in the past with its policy of educating the elite of conquered nations to act as an intermediary. I come from a non-English speaking country and I could not accept foreign languages education suddenly confined to elite educational institutions for the few.

Command of at least two foreign languages is a must now in Eastern Europe. It's hard to find a job without English, French or German in your CV. Thanks to that people (especially the young) can access foreign media, feel a part of the wider community, have a healthy outlook on the world. Do you seriously believe it would be better for them to have this all blocked by linguistic ignorance? It's especially vital in communist China. You don't need to be highly proficient in English to browse the Web or listen to the online radio. And this is what makes the difference.

Some of you claim that the command of English makes it easier to access the Western way of thinking, which is equal to indoctrination. You couldn't be more wrong. Long ago English became an international language. People from diferent cultures can communicate using English as a tool to bridge the gap between their own languages. Do you want to deprive them of it? Force them to stay within the confines of their mother tongue? I am happy I can exchange ideas with people from around the world, whether you like it or not. English is no longer the exclusive property of native speakers. It belongs to us all.

[The G-stringed Avenger]

[The G-stringed Avenger]