Job Discussion Forums

[guangho]

When I was in Beijing, I shared an abode with a Chinese woman who regaled me with the following one frigid eve:

"You know what ABC is? American Born Chinese."
"You know what a banana is? Yellow on the outside, white on the inside."
"You are very white." (that was a compliment I believe.)

My guess is that they (Koreans, Chinese and Japanese) are so isolated, they truly don't understand (or care) how offensive they are.

[chi-chi-]

Ok well here's my opinion, and I'm sure that many would disagree, but these are just my views:
Out of Korea, Taiwan, China, and Japan:
-The random individual, regardless of sex or race or whatever, will have the easiest time finding work in China. This also covers education levels-more work in China for people without degrees. The second easiest for a person without a degree, barring Americans, would be Japan.
-A South African will have the easiest time finding work in Taiwan.
-People with the least amount of money will have the best time in Korea.
-African-Americans or black people of any nationality will have the easiest time in Taiwan, followed by Japan, and will have the hardest/worst time in Korea.
-A person of Asian or Hispanic appearance will have the hardest time in Japan, the easiest time in Taiwan, in regards to finding work.
-Females will have the easiest time finding work in Taiwan.

[Big John Stud]

guangho wrote:

When I was in Beijing, I shared an abode with a Chinese woman who regaled me with the following one frigid eve: "You know what ABC is? American Born Chinese." "You know what a banana is? Yellow on the outside, white on the inside." "You are very white." (that was a compliment I believe.) My guess is that they (Koreans, Chinese and Japanese) are so isolated, they truly don't understand (or care) how offensive they are.

You could say the above about any country! However, I did find the Koreans to be extremely offensive. But on the average the Japanese are very kindly.


The only thing left after driving your drunken father to your mother's parol hearing is to drive your wife to your husband's place for a steak dinner.

[BradS]

[JimDunlop2]

BradS: Good for you. I appreciate your viewpoint -- and it's a healthy attitude to have.

Whenever I can, I try to break stereotypical images of Canadians. If it comes up in teaching or in conversation, I don't hesitate to quiz people regarding what are the three most commonly spoken languages in Canada. Numbers one and two are easy (English and French) -- but number three surprises a lot of people: Chinese. Not really the image they were expecting of a homogenous, caucasian, Judeo-Christian nation, is it? I then go on to explain that even many ethnically Japanese people live in Canada and don't consider themselves to be Japanese, but Canadian. Especially those who were born and raised there, and their children and grandchildren. Likewise, Debito Arudo doesn't fit the mold of what a "Japanese citizen" looks like either. It would be good to see more people in his situation.


Now, back to the issue at hand. In the mean time, while Japan is still a fairly homogenous nation, (and highly xenophobic at that).... If we want to change the perception (and name given) to someone who isn't Japanese but lives in Japan, what term do you propose using? As someone put it earlier on in the thread: when they ask you "What SHOULD we call you then?" What would be the most appropriate response?

Understandably, there is often a sort of evolution in such matters, as we can see from our own examples.. In Canada, Eskimo became Inuit and Indian became Native, which then became Aboriginal or First Nations. We also went from negro and colored to black, to African-American. In past years there was a lobby group that started the term: "women of color." I remember attending a lecture put on by a "woman of color" and she sparked a lively debate with some college students about whether or not the word "Oriental" is derogatory. Unfortunately, in this example, it's become obfuscated to a fairly extreme degree so people are uncomfortable using ANY term, and so they often stumble and feel extremely awkward even describing their friend.

"Hey, have you met the new guy at work yet?"
"No, not yet. What does he look like?
"He's the um..... He's uhh.... um, tall and..... uh I think he's from Zaire.. And he's uhh... you know... um... got black hair."

I can understand that, because it would be a lot easier to say, "He's a tall, black guy with a full head of curly hair." But who knows who you might insult, right? Especially if you're describing said individual to another um... uhh.. you know.... tall... black haired friend.

My friend in Canada was ethnically Japanese, and he was always fond of telling everyone: "All you white people look the same to us.... ...Fortunately you also come color-coded for easy reference."

In countries where most of the population shares the same hair and eye color, I think physical description becomes a little more important.

"Have you met the new guy?"
"I dunno. What does he look like?"
"Well, he's what...a bout 6-foot, big ears, glasses, buzz cut?"
"Oh yeah. Him. The guy always wearing an Armani suit..."

So, in all seriousness, if someone asks (what I perceive to be) a legitimate question, "What should we call you?" What do you think is the best response? 'Cause let's face it, labels just aren't going to go away. In North America, we aren't going to stop using racially descriptive words -- we just make some attempt to make them a bit less harsh and offensive.

[Nagoyaguy]

Good post, Jim.

As to what to call me, it depends on the circumstances. If you know my name, use my name. If you are a student, call me sensei. If you are in the service industry, call me okyaku-san (sama). If you know my nationality, aske me about my nationality. If you dont know any of the above, call me 'sumimasen'.

To describe me to others, gaijin is a useless word. It describes what you are NOT, not what you are. Call me haku-jin, Canada-jin, seiyo-jin, all are better.

If you can think of any circumstance when using "gaijin" is necessary or even helpful, please tell me.

[JimDunlop2]

[BradS]

As someone mention earlier, if I was Japanese I wouldn't talk to my Japanese friends as "Hey, Japanese!". I'd say "Sorry, what's your name? I'm Brad." and then use the name from then onward. If in a store, "Excuse me" is fine. There's no need to point out my nationality (or lack of ). Same as you don't announce someone's sexuality or religion. You wouldn't say "Hey, Lesbian!" or "Hey, Christian!"

[Nagoyaguy]

Damn, Brad, that made me laugh. "Hey lesbian! Where's the bus stop"!!

Although, to be precise, gaijin is about pointing out the external features of a person, not the internal. So lesbian or Christian are not exactly applicable, since they are not (generally) easily visible.

I think "gaijin" would be closer to pointing out someone's ethnicity or race in a rather rude way. Like saying "Hey you Asian guy, ...." or "Yo, whitey,..."

It reminds me of the movie Rush Hour (Rush Hour 2?) where Jackie Chan and Chris Tucker walk into a bar in a tough black neighborhood. Chris says to the bartender, "Hey, my n!gger, what's up?" and gets greeted warmly. Jackie Chan sees this and decided to do the same. Needless to say, the reaction Jackie gets is a little more violent. I see "gaijin" as the equivalent to saying "hello darkie".

[Tamago86]

The only reason you all are bitching so much and feel so upset is you're all trying to match your own culture and your own use of words and sociolinguistic terminology with that of the Japanese. Japanese don't imply anything offensive when they say "gaijin", opposite of what someone implies when they say "hey darkie" or something like that. Please stop trying to find matches for it, and realize that there are cultures out there besides your own that actually have different points of views than your's (wow!) And if you can't accept that they don't mean you any harm when they say gaijin then that's your own damn problem and a problem you'll spend your entire life fighting in Japan, for nothing.

And while you're all whining and moaning about your over-sensitive issues take a look at how other asians are treated in Japan compared to you, many Koreans are lucky to work in factories and most employers won't even look at Chinese people. *This* is true racism, not the kind that stems from English teachers with a lack of understand or willingness to understand the people of the country they're living and working in.

[Nismo]

[JimDunlop2]

Tamago86: Normally I wouldn't say this, but in your case I will make an exception. Bulls*t.

There is absolutely nothing unreasonable about asking for a little bit of respect in our dealings with Japanese people. Just because someone who calls you "gaijin" is not being malicious doesn't make him any less of a twit.

When children point their fingers at you and yell, "Gaijin! Gaijin!" Where do you think they get that from? The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, my friend. Their parents obviously condone or even encourage such behavior. As does Japanese society in general.

If a child points his finger at someone with a handicap, for instance, and exclaims at the top of his lungs: "That man has only one leg." It's up to me as a parent to educate my child that A) pointing is rude, and B) so is making statements like that. My child isn't trying to be malicious either, but that doesn't make him any more polite. Now let's say I live in a society where the parents DON'T explain to their kids that it's rude, and the children grow up and become adults who point to random strangers and exclaim their differences or handicaps to everyone. Sociolinguistic terminology aside, I think we'd all agree, that would be pretty damned rude.

If we all pursued thinking like yours, the civil rights movement probably wouldn't have even started because we would be too busy feeding ourselves the lie that "there is nothing wrong with the word 'negro.' That's what they are isn't it? And if a negro has a problem with what he is and doesn't understand that I don't mean any harm by calling him that, than it's his own problem that he's going to spend fighting it for nothing."

Ignorance is absolutely inexcusable if you are endeavoring to promote an international culture and tolerance. The whole "if they don't like it, they should just go back where they came from" attitude is, and has been a defining rallying point for racists everywhere. For a country that can't figure out WHY tourism isn't where it should be, has held international events like the Olympics, the World Cup, and next year in Aichi, the World Expo, many Japanese people really need pull their heads out of the sand (that's not the word I was thinking of), and wake-up to the fact that other cultures and races may have issues with their behavior, and it isn't just "their problem." Not if they are trying to promote an international attitude, anyway.

Now let's pull this down a couple of notches and make it a little easier to understand on an individual level. Let's say you have an exchange student from Zambonia come to your home. Let's say, for the sake of discussion, that he is offended by the word 'automobile: because in Zambonian it meant something unbelievable profane and dirty. Now, if he were to ask you to refrain using this word, what would you say to him? "Well, here it's not a rude word so you'd better get used to it?" Then continue to use the word? That could be fine if he were the only Zambonian and it was an isolated case. And if you didn't care whether or not he was offended and left your home. But would it REALLY be that inconvenient for you to just use the word 'car' instead of 'automobile'? Now, what if the Zambonian were an ambassador on a trade mission? You'd go out of your way to ensure that neither you, nor anyone on your staff would say that offending word. You would even circulate office memos. The same way, the Japanese community can either choose to revert back to pre-Meiji isolationism, or they must be willing to accept certain cultural and liguistic concessions that come with having contact with non-Japanese cultures and races.

If it were "just a word" Tamago, that would be one thing. But whether "gaijin" is meant to be derogatory or not, it carries with it a certain weight and certian baggage. The very nature of the word builds up walls and barriers. "Gaikokujin" or "foreign land person" implies a difference. Local versus foreign. Us. Them. "Oh, look! He's one of THEM." This sets up the stage for stereotypes and racism. "THEY are all dirty." "THEY don't understand US." "THEY think differently." "THEY all carry guns in THEIR country." Do you see the problem? Then we have an image of what defines a "nihonhin" and what defines a "gaijin." People like Debito Arudo break this mold. It causes people to think! He doesn not LOOK like a nihonjin, but he IS. As are many nihon-jin born to Japanese mothers and non-Japanese fathers. I feel a bit sorry for the kid in one of my classes that looks completely caucasian, because his father was an American. He doesn't speak a word of English, by the way. He has to spend a lifetime of being discriminated against because of his skin color, and being not only "called" a gaijin, but being TREATED as one, which, despite having a few benefits, also causes many more problems too. If we all don't start trying to change some attitudes here, eventually, some day it will reach critical mass, like it has in the United States (to a certian extent) and many African countries, like Zimbabwe or South Africa.

[chi-chi-]

Good posts, Jim Dunlop 2.

[Big John Stud]

Nismo wrote:

The use of the word 'gaijin' is considered derogatory, as I am sure most of you are aware. You'll rarely hear the term used amongst Japanese in the presence of a foreigner, they'll instead use the proper term 'gaikokujin'. The shortening of 'gaikokujin' to 'gaijin' can be likened to the shortening of 'Japanese' to 'Jap'. It is just one of my pet peeves that foreigners abuse, but at the same time I am amused that I am part of this category of people that can claim 'that is our word' (think black people and the use of 'nigga'). Amongst other things, the use of 'otaku' amongst anime lovers annoys me to no end. Do they not know they are insulting themselves? It's like they are calling themselves rejects of society. I just wanted to hear what the rest of the board users thought, and I invite you to list your pet peeves revolving around foreigners in Japan.

You must be either new to Japan or very fragil or probably both! Gaijin is not derogatory unless you give it that power. I often refer to myself and other foreigners as gaijin. In fact I teach them a song instead of one little, two little, three little, three little gaijin! I am sure you know the orginal song.

In life there is so much to worry about why worry if someone calls you a word in a language that you probably do not know that well? Think about it, you are in a culture you also do not know too well yet.

[Big John Stud]

JimDunlop2 you have obviously given being called a gaijin a lot of thought so in other words you have way too much time on your hands!