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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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 Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| Well put TS. I suggest that if people want to sort out this issue, then they should post at Forumosa. In particular, I would like Seeburn to post there and see what response he receives. |
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OutofChaos
Joined: 24 Nov 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Yowlin' in Yilan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:22 am Post subject: |
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Anyone relying only on this forum for complete and truthful information regarding Taiwan is in for some rough times. I suggest pursuing any number of other more reliable sources for information.
OOC |
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ScottSommers
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 82
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:20 am Post subject: |
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It's unfortunate, but TS seems to be correct. I don't post much over here anymore for the very reasons he refers to; nothing much seems to be happening. I've lost track of the major players on Dave's, so I've also lost track of the fact that most of them don't live here. This may explain why I agree with much of what is said by JS and others, but can't shake a gut-feeling that it's just a superficial agreement I have with them for completely different reasons -- or because I'm not reading their posts carefully enough.
For a different take on this problem, you might want to check out what's being said here
http://www.forumosa.com/taiwan/viewtopic.php?t=24469 |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| It's funny someone should call this a contest of egos. I don't see it that way. Someone over at Forumosa described this forum as quickly becoming one where the blind lead the blind. This is because most residents post over there and not here. This place is dominated by noobs and non-residents, so opinions are less informed. When people in Toronto are allowed to spread misinformation and dominate then this place becomes just as it was described on Forumosa. |
Strange you should say that because most of my posting is on Forumosa, not here. The difference over there is conversations are a little more light hearted, nobody is shouting at each other, everybody is just a little more mature. In fact, thats is why I rarely post here. It is a battle of egos. The same thing used to happen on the Tealit forum.
Wombat wrote:
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| I will certainly not dispute the fact that some schools in the past have blocked ARC transfers. This was one of the inadequacies of the previous system, and this is one of the benefits of the recent changes. As the comments that yourself and Jason seem to be making relate to the old system, I don�t know what else I can say on this matter. For newbies arriving in Taiwan or even teachers who are currently living here but looking at changing employers, none of the past situations are really of any consequence in my opinion and this is why I have chosen to ignore that. I suggest that it is better to discuss what the situation is now, but if you want to keep discussing what was relevant in the past then please feel free to do so. |
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| Wait a minute! That is wrong anyway. You have always been able to transfer your ARC to another school, and for some time now you have been able to do this without the permission or even knowledge of the school that you currently work for. |
TS, yes I knew about the new regulations. Being out of the country does not mean being misinformed.
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markholmes wrote:
It is true that the teacher owns the hard copy of the ARC, but does not own the ARC itself (whether in law or in practice), which essentially belongs to the school. |
Wombat wrote:
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| I disagree and ask what basis you make these claims upon. |
Undoubtedly, the new system is better. If whilst in possession of an ARC you find a new school to work for and have it added to said ARC, thats great. But what about a school sacking you mid semester with no notice, your ARC gets cancelled and you get to leave the country sharpish, nothing has changed. You are not in control of your situation however secure you feel. Your employer can always pull the rug from under feet whenever they wish. I think you have a little to much trust in your employer, or maybe you are just lucky.
The comparison with Japan is valid, because that system is better and allows the teacher to be in control of the situation. Of course you say that is irrelevant to the conversation, because you have little knowledge of it and wouldn't want to be caught out on this forum.
markholmes wrote:
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| I've read the new rules about adding schools to ARCs but have yet to hear a first hand account. |
Wombat wrote:
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| And hopefully you are not suggesting that the rules are wrong just because you haven�t seen it in practice! |
I hope your not suggesting that because there is a new piece of legislation, that schools will follow it. To be honest in Taiwan I think only first hand accounts should be relied on.
And with that I shall post no more on this subject, not because I am wrong, in fact I maintain what I say. But what will happen now is that Wombat will post some 500 line post which we are all expected to read and respond to. Following that he will do the same again until we are all so bored of it that we will stop responding. Wombat will believe that he has won which will give him further fuel to post more extraordinarily long posts.
By the way Wombat, I am not a newbie, the number to the left is not a reflection of how long I have been posting here.
The problem with this board is their just aren't enough Smiley faces. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:58 am Post subject: |
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| markholmes wrote: |
| Undoubtedly, the new system is better. If whilst in possession of an ARC you find a new school to work for and have it added to said ARC, thats great. |
So you're agreed that these transfers can actually take place?
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| But what about a school sacking you mid semester with no notice, your ARC gets cancelled and you get to leave the country sharpish, nothing has changed. You are not in control of your situation however secure you feel. Your employer can always pull the rug from under feet whenever they wish. |
This simply refers to a change of the circumstances in which you are permitted an ARC. I don't see what it adds to the issue of whether or not you own your ARC, or the issue of whether or not you can add other schools to your ARC.
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| The comparison with Japan is valid, because that system is better and allows the teacher to be in control of the situation. Of course you say that is irrelevant to the conversation, because you have little knowledge of it and wouldn't want to be caught out on this forum. |
Comparisons with Japan have interest value, but when I want to know the legislation concerning ARCs in Taiwan, and when I want to know whether the ARC I have in Taiwan is owned by me, and when I want to know if I can add schools to the ARC I have in Taiwan, then whatever is done in Japan is irrelevant to me.
The whole Japan comparison issue is really a red herring in this discussion.
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| I hope your not suggesting that because there is a new piece of legislation, that schools will follow it. To be honest in Taiwan I think only first hand accounts should be relied on. |
Mark, I think you're really reaching here. There is new legislation, and that legislation permits the teacher (not the school), to do something you couldn't do previously. If you didn't know that, then just say so and leave it there. |
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ScottSommers
Joined: 21 Jan 2003
Posts: 82
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: |
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I think TS's point was that different things happen when peole post here and on Forumosa. A prime example of that is contained in the posting I linked to in my last comment.
Last edited by ScottSommers on Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| ScottSommers wrote: |
| I think TS's point was that differnt things happen when peole post here and on Forumosa. A prime example of that is contained in the posting I linked to in my last comment. |
Well that's very true, certainly. And that thread you linked to was indeed a good example. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Being out of the country does not mean being misinformed
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Yes it does. You do not know my adopted home as well as I do. That's a truism, if I've ever heard one. You currently live where I grew up. However, since I don't currently live there I would accept that you are right now more knowledgeable about certain aspects of life in Vancouver than I am currently. Matters such as employment laws, governmental procedures and so on have likely changed since I left (I haven't seen the mess that Gordon Campbell has supposedly been making of my home province). I would expect that you would know much more about such things. You talk about happy faces. Here:  Is that good enough? I realise that print genres don't allow for non-verbal communication, so it is often hard to know the mood intended. I seldom 'yell' at people in print form, though I am assertive. Still, I think there is a common sense item here that ought not to be overlooked: I live in Taiwan. Right now, it is home for me. I'm aware of the laws and procedures that are relevent ot me. Someone in Vancouver, Toronto or Japan cannot have the same direct knowledge of day to day life and how things work here as I do. I grant that you may have lived here before. However, a lot has changed and your memories do not have the same immediacy as my present on-going experiences here.
To prevent things from going too much further off course:
1)ARCs are not the property of your sponsoring school. They have no right to withold them, despite what some guy in Toronto says.
2)ARC cards need to be carried as ID cards here. A photocopy is not sufficient. I can't believe people aren't all over this dirty tactic employed by Seeburn's former job. It was a ploy to keep him from leaving, and a dirty one at that.
3)You can switch jobs and your school can't stop you. The new procedure lets you do so without your old school even knowing it.
4)As interesting as they are, discussions about other jurisdictions are not relevent to the Taiwan forum and this discussion in particular. They only serve as red herrings to lead the discussion off-topic. |
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Fortigurn
Joined: 29 Oct 2003
Posts: 390
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| Posted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:43 am Post subject: |
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| Thanks TS, that puts the matter back on track very well. |
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wombat
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 134
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:04 am Post subject: |
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| markholmes wrote: |
| The difference over there is conversations are a little more light hearted, nobody is shouting at each other, everybody is just a little more mature. |
I wasn�t aware that anyone was shouting over here. In fact I would say that the discussions here are just as civil as those over there at Forumosa. You weighed into this thread suggesting that what I was writing and what the legislation stated were incorrect, yet you failed to support these assertions. You have to expect a reply from me, which you got. Don�t be so sensitive. This is a discussion forum after all.
| markholmes wrote: |
| But what about a school sacking you mid semester with no notice, your ARC gets cancelled and you get to leave the country sharpish, nothing has changed. You are not in control of your situation however secure you feel. Your employer can always pull the rug from under feet whenever they wish. I think you have a little to much trust in your employer, or maybe you are just lucky. |
Firstly, although you didn�t specifically state so, you have alluded to what is a common misconception amongst teachers here in Taiwan. Your employer cannot cancel your ARC. Your employer can revoke their sponsorship of you as a foreign worker here which results in your work permit being cancelled. Without a valid work permit your ARC then becomes invalid as it is based upon your work permit and resident visa being active. This may sound like splitting hairs but it is in fact a very important distinction to make. Provided that you have secured alternative employment before the completion of the above process then your new employer can apply to have you transferred over to their sponsorship. Therefore, provided you are continually employed and working legally, then you can be relatively safe in the knowledge that employers don�t have the power over us that they previously did. And it is just this kind of situation where a knowledge of the legislation can be to your advantage.
So, in the situation that Mark outlines above, yes you would be inconvenienced if you were to be fired without notice (just as you would anywhere in the world), but if you were determined to remain in Taiwan legally then you could certainly do so. You would just have to find a new legal employer in a timely fashion so that they could take over control of everything.
Finally, I do have more faith in the system and employers than most. This is not because I am naive however, but because I am careful and persistent. I am careful to avoid employers offering top dollar for very little in return as I believe that a quality employer sells themselves on their reputation � not their pocketbook. I am careful to document everything and keep it even when it would appear that it no longer has any relevance. When things don�t go as planned I am persistent in that rather than ranting and raving about how unfair everything is, I find some leverage and negotiate if things are in a gray area, or use the legislation to go for the throat if I am justified in doing so. It is not a walk in the park to mediate with government authorities and your employer, but it can all be done in English and is very achievable if you have a legitimate case.
| markholmes wrote: |
| The comparison with Japan is valid, because that system is better and allows the teacher to be in control of the situation. Of course you say that is irrelevant to the conversation, because you have little knowledge of it and wouldn't want to be caught out on this forum. |
You are really stretching now Mark. What happens in Japan has no relevance to the decisions that are made here in Taiwan so what relevance could you possibly suggest that it has to this discussion. Feel free to discuss the Japan situation with the authorities in Taiwan when applying for your ARC if you like and see how far it gets you, but I will stick to what Taiwan says and does about Taiwan affairs when I am dealing with the Taiwan authorities. As an anecdote for mere interest sake the mention of the situation in Japan may have some place on this forum. But the suggestion that the situation in Japan should be some kind of benchmark is somewhat ridiculous.
| markholmes wrote: |
| I hope your not suggesting that because there is a new piece of legislation, that schools will follow it. To be honest in Taiwan I think only first hand accounts should be relied on. |
I think that Fortigurn addressed that comment well in his posting so I need say no more.
| markholmes wrote: |
| And with that I shall post no more on this subject, not because I am wrong, in fact I maintain what I say. |
That�s the spirit Mark. However just because you maintain what you have been saying doesn�t mean that you are right. Personally, I probably agree with about 30% of what you have contributed to this thread.
| markholmes wrote: |
| But what will happen now is that Wombat will post some 500 line post which we are all expected to read and respond to. Following that he will do the same again until we are all so bored of it that we will stop responding. Wombat will believe that he has won which will give him further fuel to post more extraordinarily long posts. |
I think that the above quote is very sour and does not say much about you as a person Mark. The answer is simple. If you don�t like what I write then you can exercise your right to ignore it, just the same as I exercise my right to write it. Some of my posts are long, that is true. I don�t see any problem with that at all, provided that they are informative, on topic, and written in a way that makes them easy to read for those seeking information. I believe that my posts are. If you know everything already then good for you, but please don�t assume that the information that I post is not of interest to some others who are new or prospective arrivals here in Taiwan. This is a discussion forum after all, not a forum for �one liners� and �quips�.
Oh, by the way. I don�t believe that it is possible for people to actually �win� or �lose� on a discussion forum. Everyone has their say and hopefully someone is able to prove their point in a way that the majority can understand, even if some are still not in agreeance with what is being said.
| markholmes wrote: |
| By the way Wombat, I am not a newbie, the number to the left is not a reflection of how long I have been posting here. |
I wasn�t referring to the number on the left, I was referring to the length of time that you have been actively posting on this forum under the username that you now have. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:15 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
| Jason, you are completely uninformed on this issue. It's just your ego responding now. The ARC card is produced by the government and you are REQUIRED to carry it. Not a copy; the actual card. Did you read any of the LAWS posted by wombat? Your school had no right to withold your ARC. What they did is not standard procedure. Are you going to say, with your one experince in Taiwan, that it is? You're just arguing because, as you said a while ago, you like to "win" arguments. Truth and reality don't seem to matter. Give your ego a rest and learn. So, you were wrong on this. Big deal. Now you are better prepared if and when you ever come here again. Just let the issue die. The horse died long ago; time to stop kicking. You're not going to be able tell a bunch of Taiwan residents much about the laws affecting us from your location in Toronto. We just know more about this place and its laws, people, language and way of life than you do. |
There be a whole lotta egos in this thread. Mine ain't one of 'em. It's the battle of the Taiwan ESL egos, with all the usual players. Welcome back guys. Schools do routinely withhold ARCs. Many people in Taichung had theirs withheld by their schools. I knew people when I was there. I didn't just go to convenience stores and get excited about what the clerks were saying. But then, to each his own I guess. Simple things amuse simple minds? At any rate, as this is going to degenerate into another Taiwan discussion forum meaningless romp in the petty details, I'm going to forget about it. I'm sure that you have all pretty much hopelessly confused the original poster who asked the simple question. Who owns the ARC? Like how did the Caramilk get into the chocolate bar? Who knows? Like your passport, it ain't yours. But a passport gives you more rights than an ARC does, and you can legally demand one. Well, there's no point arguing with people who can't make sense. Have fun "owning" your ARC cards. Next time you want to quit and transfer schools, try just taking your ARC to the other school and starting work there, without getting your old school's permission. Then post a nice little message so we all know what happened.
Last edited by jason_seeburn on Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:21 am Post subject: Re: Ownership of your Alien Resident Certificate (ARC) |
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| Wait a minute! That is wrong anyway. You have always been able to transfer your ARC to another school, and for some time now you have been able to do this without the permission or even knowledge of the school that you currently work for. |
That is just not correct. I don't believe that for a minute. If it is true then Taiwan has become like paradise. If only I believed you people. Unfortunately, I don't. If I went back to Taiwan and took your advice that I could transfer my ARC anywhere I wanted, without my school's permission, and it turned out I couldn't do this, I would be quite upset with you. So will anyone else who reads this information you are providing. Are you really sure this is true? Because I knew a heck of a lot of people who wanted out of their schools but couldn't get out, when I was over there. Has Taiwan changed its system so that it is like Japan? I really don't believe it. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:26 am Post subject: |
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Jason, it is clear you weren't aware of what was going on around you when you were here. Two years after your departure, you aren't any more aware. If your friends wanted to leave their jobs, there was a process they could have followed, even then. If nothing else, they could have simply took a visa trip and started over.
God, this current resident VS non-resident, noobie nonsense is getting tired. |
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jason_seeburn
Joined: 26 Apr 2003
Posts: 399
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Tue Nov 16, 2004 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| TaoyuanSteve wrote: |
Jason, it is clear you weren't aware of what was going on around you when you were here. Two years after your departure, you aren't any more aware. If your friends wanted to leave their jobs, there was a process they could have followed, even then. If nothing else, they could have simply took a visa trip and started over.
God, this current resident VS non-resident, noobie nonsense is getting tired. |
So are you now saying that I am right? You can't just quit and move to another school and take your ARC with you? You have to do a visa run and start over? Get a new ARC? What happens to the old ARC that you "owned"? Does the government take it back then? Sounds just like the old Taiwan I remember. Slightly better than the situation in Korea, but not much better. |
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