Job Discussion Forums

[R]

Good point, Stephen. I'd forgotten about the man in the grey Y's.

[SueH]

Stephen,

I think you are being hard on 'b u gg e r'. It is acceptable here in the deep South of England but as ever it depends on context and qualifiers, hence:

Jocularly 'You silly bugger, you've wrapped the kite round the forestay'
Vehemently ' You stupid bugger, why don't you look where you're going'?
Admiringly 'You crafty old bugger'

'diddle' come I think from travellers' language. The most common usage of pants now is as a derogatory opinion - 'that film was pants'

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Good Day Mates:

First, my sincere 'thanks' to everyone for the entertaining and informative replies, additions and links.

Below are two more examples from mainstream English that have not been mentioned so far. These 2 caused me some minor confusion the first time I came across them. On the left, the British version; on the right, the American:

single - one-way (with regard to airline or train tickets)
return - roundtrip

And a question for the British experts out there: Once again, I am struggling with the textbook "Matters". In unit 9 of the Upper Intermediate book, there's an interview with Michael Palin, who uses the words: stroppy; grotty

From the context, I can guess the meaning, but I'd appreciate a more specific definition, if anyone cares to help. Also: Are these two words considered slang, since I could not find either of them in my mini-Oxford or online dictionary.

Thanks
kEnt

[Mike_2003]

Hi Kent,

"Stoppy" adj. Chiefly British strop�pi�er, strop�pi�est
Easily offended or annoyed; ill-tempered or belligerent.

- He gets stroppy if you drink his beers.

"Grotty" adj. Chiefly British Slang grot�ti�er, grot�ti�est
Very unpleasant; miserable. [Alteration of grotesque.]

- That cafe is a bit grotty, I wouldn't go there.

Mike

[Stephen Jones]

If you're "stroppy" you're always arguing the toss, a kind of barrack-room lawyer; the standard English is "belligerant".

If something's "grotty" it's run down, tatty, the kind of drinking hole where you get the flies in the enchiladas but not the tequila.

They are both colloquial words; very common in BrE but not really slang.

I am not at all sure about the appropriageness of this materail in your neck of the woods. Spanish, French or Italian students are likely to have direct access to the UK, so I can see the point, but I would have thought most of your students contacts would be with non-native speakers or Americans.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Dear Mike_2003 and Stephen Jones:

Thanks a bunch Why do I even need a dictionary when I can count on you guys for such excellent info?!

BestWishes,
kEntWhoIsNeveRStroPpy

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

And a follow-up question, since we've now raised the vague subject of slang vs. mainstream English.

Who actually decides which words in the English language will move from the 'slang' category into the mainstream? Is there a process, or does it have more to do with the number of years that a particular piece of slang has survived?

Just curious if any of you totally rad dudes has the skinny on that one.

Yours,
kenT

[rogan]

keNt,
I guess that once it's in the Oxford English Dictionary it's accepted as part of normal everyday English.

That's NOT to say that every word that is in there is STILL part of everyday English.

[Stephen Jones]

One of the purposes of slang is to be incomprehensible to the establishment. This may be for reasons of group reinforcement, or it may be to ensure that others don't overhear you planning the next bank heist.

So in the US and UK, where the barriers around the standard dialect are farrly permeable, "slang" can enter the mainstream fairly quickly. On the ohter hand in France, where there is a fierce defense of conservative norms from the Academy, then slang can stay static for generations. When I lved in Paris in the 1970s I found that the language of "Papillon", a book written in the criminal slang of the 1930s, was exactly the same as the everyday language used in the suburb I lived in. On the other hand 1930s British slang would be considered unitelligible or picturesque in the 60s in Britain.

Now, Kent, you must rememver that 'slang' is a particular lexical subset used by a self-defined group. It can overlap with language that is colloquial, informal or sub-standard, but the classification is different.

There are various things to consider in our classification. First of all dialect; when we teach English we are in fact teaching a certain dialect of it - standard English. This is a social dialect, though to some extent based on a regional one. Now within this dialect there are various registers. We normally teach the standard register, which can be used in almost all cirumstances, but going "up" we have the formal register (lexically words such as 'moreover' and 'hence' would belong to it, and syntactically 'Whom' preceded by a preposition), which contains parts of the language used in formal written English or higly formal spoken English, and which, wnen used in normal converstion elicit the response, "He sounds like a book". Going "down" we then have the informal register, which is what we use with our friends and family, and which is quite appropriate in all but the most formal of occasions. Going one further down we then have the colloquial register, which consists of phrases such as 'grotty', 'fab', 'pissup', 'dude' and other such phrases. These phrases would quite possibly raise eyebrows in polite society, even in relaxed contexts. Finally there is the category of sub-standard or non-standard; an examole is the double negative -"You aiin't seen nuffin' yet!". Such phrases are often called ungrammatical, but they are perfectly grammatical; it is just that they are grammatical in another social or geographic dialec.t but not grammatical in the dialect of standard English.

Now, Standard English includes all of these registers,, except for the sub/non-standard, which it may still include for special effect, but other dialects will not have the formal register and because of a phenomenum know as diglossa, may only be used in informal contexts between members of the same dialectical group or describing certain subjects, using Standard English for other registers, interaction with other dialect groups, and discussion of certain topics with speakers of the same dialect.

Now words and constructions can move "up" and "down" the various registers, sometimes in surprising ways, For example "kock-up" is considered so colloquial that it doesn't even make it through the forum filter if spelt correctly, yet you can come acrss the phrase in highly formal academic papers dealing with "conspiracy theories" and "kock-up theories".

Just a few words to be going on. There is a whole fascinating branch of linguistics dealing with this called socio-linguistics. If you do decide to study it further you can get the bonus of adding a couple of letters after your name as well.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Privyet Rogan!

and

Thank you, Stephen Jones, for the interesting and excellent reply to my question. Remind me not to question your grammatical advice ever again.

Yours,
KeNt

[R]

The OED has a team of readers who churn their way through countless magazines, books and newspapers looking for new words or new uses of words. These are marked and sent back to the dictionary offices, where they are analysed and recorded in context. If the same word or usage crops up in three different independent sources, the word is added to the dictionary.

That's a bit of a simplification, but you get the picture.

Incidentally, my ORD suggests that 'stroppy' may be an abbreviation of 'obstreperous' and that 'grotty' is a shortening of 'grotesque'.

New word please!
Rob.

[Mike_2003]

Further to R's answer, I believe the word must be seen in common usage for a certain period of time before it is deemed worthy of inclusion by any particular dictionary.

As far as I remember from the article I read, the English language has no official governing body (unlike some other languages) and the dictionaries therefore have the freedom to decide for themselves what goes in or stays out based on whether they believe the likelihood of someone wishing to look a particular word up warrants it.

[Kent F. Kruhoeffer]

Thanks Fellas:

Rob: I can't resist. What the hell is OED and ORD? They sound like German/Austrian TV network names.

Of course I could have posted this question on the Scoobie Doobie Newbie Forum, but I would have felt like a real d.i.c.k.

Do I get Scoobie-snacks for good questions

Yours,
KENt

[Stephen Jones]

OED is Oxfor English Dictionary; SOED is Shorter Oxfprd English Dictionary and COD is Concise Oxford Dictionary.

They are all published by the same publishing house but produced by different authors and teams. The COD is not as important as it used to be because with the advent of the web the physical size of the other editions was no longer a drawback.

The OED is a descriptive and historical dictionary, whilst the other two have oretensions to being prescriptive.

I've no idea what the ORD is.

[Shonai Ben]

Oxford Revised Dictionary?Just a guess.