Job Discussion Forums

[moonraven]

Mike: The atrocious spelling I was referring to was of native speakers of Spanish. That should have been obvious when I indicated that I teach "Redacci�n". Just another example that proves my point that your Spanish is marginal at best. Your whining about not having studied Spanish anywhere is no excuse. I have never studied Spanish, either, but that doesn't stop me from writing, publishing, teaching and giving conferences in the language.

[seanie]

The kids in my kindergarden used to say “self-praise is no recommendation” as a put-down when anybody got a bit boastful; so like a true caballero, I shall save Mike from the ignominy of self-praise and come to his defense.

Moonraven’s comment that Mike’s Spanish “is marginal at best” is not only unfounded, but untrue. The only Aussies I’ve heard speak more impressive Spanish were in the film Strictly Ballroom. As for Moonraven, well, we’ve never met (at least, not that I can remember). She seems to be pretty confident about her spelling though.

Both Mike & MR make the point that native Spanish speakers often mix up some letters. I remember a student once asking me, not too long after I’d arrived, if a particular word was spelled with b-grande or v-chica. At the time I didn’t know what was meant by those terms (because when I studied Spanish, I was taught that “b” was pronounced be and “v” was pronounced uve), so I said to her “v de vagina”. Her face fell, and she seemed thoroughly flummoxed. To this day I’m not sure if it was because I said vagina or because she didn’t know which “B” was in vagina.

One time a friend of mine was getting some information on the phone about a prepa in Mexico City which was named after a famous writer. When he showed me his jottings, I was surprised to see that he’d written Colegio Servantes. Even after I’d pointed it out to him, he still couldn’t figure out what was wrong. This same friend once wrote me a letter in which he used the following gem: no es hac�. Of course, being a native speaker, his Spanish was perfect. I was just better at spelling, that’s all.

Perhaps the reverse happens too? Many native speakers of English mix up words (rather than letters) such as “their” & “there” or “principal” & “principle” or even “as” & “has” (in countries where there is h-dropping) or – another gem – “should of” for “should have”. Maybe some non-natives could put some of us to shame by picking out these writing errors that some of us make. I’m guessing yes. Maybe if you’re good at or meticulous about spelling in your own language, you transfer that to your L2? I don’t know.

One interesting thing I discovered a few months ago was that there seems to be incorrect usage of the word for “libido” in Spanish. It’s not a word that I had ever used with students before, but during the summer session it came up in a class translation. All my dictionaries (one big fat bilingual Collins, one small monolingual Larousse b�sico escolar [for kids!], and a big fat monolingual Oc�ano) had la libido (same stress as in English) whereas all the students translated it as el l�bido (which, so far, I have found in no dictionary….although there is an adjective l�vido). So, just in case a Mexican ever challenges you, stand your ground and bet them a meal in a nice restaurant. After having done the students’ bidding and searched and researched, libido is the Spanish word I’m most confident about (spelling, gender and pronunciation). Who wood of thunk?

[Guy Courchesne]

swhy I keep teaching here in Mexico. Language is so much fun.

It's like...taking apart a car. The abstract tinkering is so much fun. Putting it back together again...that's the boring part. Too literal.

I'm very sure that will be taken the wrong way. But hey, metaphors are like that.

[thelmadatter]

seanie - you got it right. I think it is because how natives and non-native relate differently to the language. I dont confuse "v" and "b" in part, I admit, to the fact that I let my English interfere and I pronounce the two differently. Helps with spelling but contributes to accent.

My immediate boss is an excellent non-native speaker of English and corrects my typos and occasional grammar mistakes in English! The plus here is that we are compatible - Im the creative guy (gal)/composer and she is one heck of an editor.

Spelling does not indicate a good or even native speaker... that is true.

[moonraven]

Seanie--we have not met. As to Mike's Spanish, all I have to go by is what he has written on this forum--and it has been riddled with errors.

It's true that spelling doesn't, in itself, indicate one's level of SPEAKING a language. It does, however, indicate how much one READS in the language. A voracious reader such as myself (one book a day in Spanish, plus the newspaper and a magazine or two) sees words frequently enough to know how they are spelled. The same applies to grammar and syntax, and to the size of one's vocabulary. Here in Mexico, most people simply do not read, as books are expensive--caught up in the vicious cycle of high unit cost because of insufficient demand. (Some folks would say it's because the government has always wanted them to be poor and ignorant.) In the last course I designed, Estrategias de aprendizaje, the incoming first year university students had to ask me to define a lot of words in the texts that we read--and a few of the swifter ones started bringing dictionaries to class. Because they don't have the habit of reading, most students have the devil of a time with spelling--and also with the use of the subjunctive mode.

Someone who WRITES a lot in the language usually doesn't make a lot of spelling errors, either. One of my bosses once asked why I wrote so well in Spanish. I answered that writers tend to write well--it's our profession, after all. I believe skills do transfer from one language to another. I have also noticed when teaching writing in Spanish that most students--little by little--stop making so many spelling errors. (One reason is that it's embarrassing to have their non-mexican teacher keep correcting their errors!)

[seanie]

Moonraven, I too have often thought that reading is a factor. And a theory I have about why students write so badly in English is that they write badly in Spanish too. (That plus the fact that English is a foreign language )

A lot of the time I find it easier to read a novel in Spanish than some articles in my local newspaper... in the case of the latter, so much stuff just seems to be "dangling".

I also think that if you have a good vocabulary in English, you'll understand a great deal more Spanish; and vice versa. There are so many cognates that just seem so obvious to me, but I've had many an experience like the following:

Teacher: That's a euphemism.

Students: What???

Teacher: You know, eufemismo.

Students: ��Qu�?!

Teacher (thinking): Maybe it's my stupid foreign accent.

Teacher writes eufemismo ever so neatly on the board.

Students: �Qu� es eso?

Teacher (thinking): Bloody hell!!

We probably acquired a lot of this "posh" vocabulary by reading a lot in our "formative years". Perhaps Moonraven is right.

By the way, did anyone pick up that I wrote "kindergarten" with a "d"? I think Spanish really does start creeping into your English little by little (jardin de ni�os). Of course, it means exactly that in German, pero no hablo alem�n

[Ben Round de Bloc]

[Guy Courchesne]

You know who knows all about euphemisms? Southers in the US...apparently, it's almost a sport there, so tells me one Methodist from North Carolina.

Them suthunahs are as quick as polecat cawt in a dance hawll and as fun as a Joo-ly Georgia hoedown

[MixtecaMike]

[Ben Round de Bloc]

Let me clarify a bit here. I didn't say university students don't know how to use euphemisms. My point was that I don't think the word euphemism is part of most university students' common vocabulary. Just as most people can use a simile, metaphor, alliteration, hyperbole, anistrophe, etc., I doubt that those words are part of their standard vocabulary.

[moonraven]

I am sorry to say that in Mexico the example, "eufemismo", will provoke different reactions depending on whether the students are in a public university or a private university. When kids enter a private university here, most of them have just graduated from a private high school--where their teachers (at least for subjects in English) have pumped them full of the terms Ben Round mentions. In that particular case, I would be surprised if a student were unfamiliar with those terms. In fact, I remember when I was making a classroom observation of a teacher at one of the American Schools, the 9th grade students made fun of her because she spelled metaphor incorrectly on the whiteboard.

Students coming out of public high schools and entering public universities are a different kettle of fish in terms of socio-economic class. Most of the past two and a half years I worked with that population group. Precisely because of the holes in their academic infrastructure I designed a course in Spanish, Estrategias de Aprendizaje,(already mentioned on this thread but I know that some folks only read the last couple of posts) with the aim of filling in at least the most dangerous gaps. I would have been very surprised if those students had been familiar with the term "eufemismo".

[ls650]

[moonraven]

Really? I'll bet there are some folks who post on this forum that had to look it up.

[seanie]

Ben, I concede that in my example I betrayed a possibly false assumption that most high school graduates would know the word "euphemism".

I really don't know if most high school graduates from English-speaking countries know the word or not. I only know that I did.

However, the essence of my post was my theory that having a "good vocabulary" (which - I was agreeing with moonraven - probably comes from reading a lot) in your L1 would help you recognize cognates in your L2. I would argue, therefore, that it really doesn't matter which cognates I used as an illustration.... although you are right: my use of "bloody hell" (sometimes it's more like "f---ing hell!" ) did indicate that I'd assumed "euphemism"/eufemismo would be words that resonably well-educated high school graduates would know.

[Ben Round de Bloc]