Job Discussion Forums

tradinup · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 132 Location: Shenzhen, China

CJ, if no one ever speaks up or does anything about injustices there will never be any change for the better.

Would you say this if you were alive a hundred years ago in the States?

"These blacks should know that they are only employable as slaves here, if they don't like it they should just stop complaining and go back to Africa. If the shopkeeper thinks a black will hurt his business, then he has every right not to employ him. The fact is that the US employs people based on race, so blacks should just accept it and move on."

This situation changed because people spoke up and eventually influenced change (I know its not a perfect situation today).

It is certainly not as bad of a situation of what we are describing in China, but it is the same problem! It's called racism, and it disadvantages people unjustly.

Tamil_Tiger · Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:16 am Post subject:

i sympathize with your situation. The people at my school are pretty good for the most part and value the diversity of non-white native english speakers. The problem with english teachers being at the mercy of Chinese employers is the fact that if one person gets screwed over, someone else can easily be recruited to take his/her place. A school's reputation on the internet counteracts this a bit, but in terms of racism there are enough white people that will take jobs at schools that have openly racist hiring practices, and I think that it is true that there is no eoe law here. Which means you may have to take matters into your own hands. I mean, realistically there is little you can do other than inform people here, and hope they have moral scruples enough and are not so self-interested that they would scab you out and work at that school.

If you feel courageous and maybe even a bit reckless, why not try to communicate this to the foreign teachers at this school. Maybe some of them will quit in solidarity with you. If they don't give a *beep*, then why not find some other people that have an axe to grind with that school for one reason or another, and find a few of the scabs and give them an ass kicking they won't soon forget. Maybe this will drive off enough teachers to get them to reconsider their racist hiring practices. Watch out for the PSB however if you take this route.

I think if you feel strongly enough about this, you should follow it through to the bitter end. Trying to sully their name here is a good 1st step. I'd try to communicate with someone sympathetic in that school to complain to the administration on your behalf. I guess it may be tough if you don't know anyone there. An ass kicking of a scab, though a potentially perilous proposition, may actually be effective in driving away enough people to make the school reconsider. Or you could jump ship and teach somewhere (like some other country. I hear the turks are pretty cool) where they aren't so discriminatory.

I think though that your staying in China and teaching somewhere you are valued will help to educate the Chinese about nonwhite foreigners. I think their racist attitudes derive largely from ignorance of the rest of the world. Try to educate them about difference and be patient. It seems like you are doing this anyway, as you've been here a while and married a Chinese woman.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

It is not my concern to take up the banner for the those "kept down" BY THE MAN when those policies are just within a market plan that deals with the realities of a culture. And again with the slave thing....these kind of through backs are just an excuse. If you dont want to walk on the same side of the street in Birmingham Alabama as a group of young blacks, are you a race monger or just careful. If you go to a school that wants to hire a white face, are you some sort of Jack Booted Nazi or are you making a wise choice in terms of self marketing. And if you prefer to live in the company of like minded people are you trying to seek a confort level or are you a bigot. Sorry, but I dont see why anyone has to take up a fight here and really I dont see any injustice...just people making up their own minds about who and what kind of people they want to hire...

Tamil_Tiger · Posted: Wed Dec 01, 2004 11:22 pm Post subject:

I think that if someone took a job where they knew that people were being turned away for unfir reasons not tied to their ability to do the job, or where someone took a job where teachers were fired or removed unfairly for whatever reason, I'd definitely think that person was a scab. Like the strikebreakers of old. It deprives the people with grievances from being able to break the back of the unjust employer.

The Great Wall of Whiner · Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 4946 Location: Blabbing

Although I philosophically agree with the OP, I understand why they hire only white people.

It's a business decision, not a personal decision.

Mothers watch films with dashing white guys and charming white girls. Then they watch movies with black guys swearing, shooting, and acting violent (think Will Smith etc.)

It's a stereotype sure. But mothers buy into it.

And people who run businesses (the schools) care about the bottom line. The school would lose a lot of money if they hired someone non-white.

Whose fault is it?

Not the school's. It's the mothers for insisting on a white teacher. In other words, Chinese culture is to blame, with hollywood getting some blame, too.

They need to make more Denzel Washington-type movies where the leading role is black and he's the President or a doctor or something like that. And less movies like MIB where the lead black role is shouting, swearing, and grabbing his you-know-what and shaking his you-know-what in the direction of a girl's you-know-where.

That's why I totally support what Bill Cosby has to say about the black youth in America. I respect Cosby for his position (although I admit I laugh when I hear Eddie Murphy's stand-ups)

If I were the OP, I'd find a public school job. Lots of them around hiring.

Good luck.

oiboy · Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 142 Location: Middle China

Whiner,
I do agree with you to some extent, but I teach adults. I have found on a whole there has been little bias towards me. I do see maybe on day one of class; students may ask questions to me. After that it�s all about the English. The students do not care. I would take a job at a public school if I could survive in a big city with the salary. I just cannot do that anymore. TT I agree with you, though most teachers need their jobs to survive or really don't care. I was hoping to know whether this idea they have is at a corporate level, a franchise level, or a personal level. If it�s at a franchise level, I wonder what the brand owner thinks of this.

oiboy

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

If you saw a group of skinheads beating an old black lady
would you just stand there and later go for drinks with them. Its the same freaking idea. Things can be done about exposing this crap

You folk really amaze me as you practice the same poison that you preach against�.and if anyone is not on your wave length you brand them as uneducated, by calling attention to typos and mistakes, and racist, by bring up the ole slave bug a boo�.

Look in the first post and see the predigests in an over whelming example of �skinheads� beating an old black lady. Now the analogy between that and an employer who wants to answer his markets needs. This is the same kind of narrow thinking that supports racist policies of affirmative action or laws that prevent the individual from expressing his or her opinions as to hiring practice. Then we have a vindictive behavior that calls attention to innocents (placing names and numbers on the web so that other like minded PC cops can harass these working folk) in an effort to punish them for their part in this great Chinese Race scam. A scam that is no doubt a design to keep well educated and qualified (but otherwise non-white) people down. Before you point the finger of injustice, first beware that this rejection may not be based on race alone and this girl who answered the phone was just agreeing with you to get you off the phone. Nzealanders may get a bit miffed when someone tells them that their English is not understandable, but no one is calling for a revolt against the Great Chinese Franchise Discrimination Plan. What crap are you trying to expose�that a particular school has rejected you so your race sensibilities are bruised and some Chinese (underpaid and underprivileged) worker has given you a brief (and maybe understated) reason why this school didn�t hire you. The staff must be made to pay for their crimes against �who�you?

The reference to scabs was a rich one�.to compare this plight to those of the coal miners and factory workers not only is an insult to those folks who work underground in god-awful conditions and on factory lines but also to the organizations that have worked hard to improve the lives of many people world wide that live in fear of their employer and of losing their job..and by the way�what has happen to those folk who had their names and numbers published. Are they part of the oppressed or are they your oppressors�.how can anyone care about your fate when you so recklessly play with the lively hood of others that are not as well off as you.

This was a shameful act of self interest and nothing more�

struelle · Joined: 16 May 2003 Posts: 2372 Location: Shanghai

I wrote a lengthy reply earlier, but it got erased. $#@#$. The gist of it was that white teachers should recognize that they are indeed privileged and given advantages when it comes to job, rather than try to deny this. Rather than say, "Oh, it's OK, you can succeed" to a non-white teacher who is indeed suffering from racist hiring policies, the white teacher should use his or her power and privilege to work together with other teachers of different races and make changes. It may mean standing up to a manger in a discussion or confrontation over a racist hiring policy. It could also mean willing to lose his/her job over that.

Steve

tradinup · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 132 Location: Shenzhen, China

CJ, I comprehend your opinion on the matter, but you are very clearly condoning racism.

Definition:

rac�ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (rszm)
n.
1)The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2)Discrimination or prejudice based on race. (dictionary.com)

Whether they are not hiring non-whites because they truly hate them, or because they believe they will hurt business, these are both examples of discrimination based on race.

The country we are talking about is irrelevant. I'm sure there are many examples of businesses in the States that could profit more by only hiring particular races. But now the law there says that businesses cannot discriminate based on race, regardless of what effect it will have on their bottom line. We are saying that it should be the same in China. You can have your own opinion, and that opinion will be right or wrong based on who you are talking to (I'm sure they will love you in Mississippi). It is a fact though that you are a racist.

cujobytes · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:26 am Post subject: >

Tradinup. I think the point is, China is racist, sexist, and whatever else you want to call it. That's just a reality, like it or not. And the reason, in this case, is business, like it or not.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Sheddintg crocodile's tears, fellows?

Most of us get a job in third-world countries, and the locals resent us for taking their jobs away!

This is a kind of reverse discrtimination.
believe me - this is concrete discrimination. Not imaginary!
And, if we don't take a job from a local person then it is from another English teacher who comes from a country not commonly regarded as "anglophone".
THis too smacks of discrimination!

oiboy · Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 142 Location: Middle China

Roger,

I wholeheartedly agree with you. Though if a school needs a national for a specific purpose, can we call them racist? For example an "American English" school who only hires Americans. I think race has really nothing to do with it there. If you noticed the conversation above, I might have been less peeved if she didn't lie to me at first. If they did need European teachers for a reason I would be OK with that. I did know that this school had teachers of various nationalities working for them so I asked the obvious.

CJ750
There was never any telephone conversation. It was on msn. I didn't choose to expose any phone numbers that is her screen name. I didn't say anything about lack of education in my post. Why get so defensive?
I simply stated that why hiring on just the basis of skin color is detrimental to our profession as a whole.

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

Tradin Up, it is so funny to me that you can pronoune some one a racist and draw a reference to Mississippi... again with preconceived notions of someone with a "cops" metality. If I am a racist then my partners here in China (one Chinese and one black) would be well advised not to get into ventures with me. To start calling names on the basis of normal biz practice is a childs understanding of market value. Why is it that you folks want to force you way onto the management and people's choice. If I take advantage of a white face to do work in China...(I also take advantage of long hair, although I find some schools have a problem with it some have actually hired me for this reason and not because of any other qualifications) why does this make me a racist. In reality how many of the posters here even know there boses thoughts on this matter..if you have checked you own employment to insure you are working in a racist free enviroment than you too are a racist, having done nothing except to spout off on these pages about the unfair Chinese. The Chinese mangament will take every advantage they can with any foreign teacher..so why not take up the bannor for all teachers black or white...and treat your concern towards them equally. We all have our prejudice...yours is against people in Mississippi (or skinheads) and me, apparently...but then again I never said I would'nt hire a (non-white) face...just that I did'nt see any reason to force your will on others..you see I beleave in true freedom and not some ad-hock idea of "what is in fashon" ideas of equal society. Oh by the way...what are you doing to atone for the past....

Spiderman Too · Posted: Thu Dec 02, 2004 11:25 pm Post subject:

Reality check people.

Suppose:-

I am a 45 y.o. white North American male. I have a masters degree in education. I have 22 years experience teaching in North American high schools. I can speak French, Spanish and Mandarin fluently. I am a �thalidomide baby�; my arms are 30 cm long. Will it be difficult for me to secure employment in China?

I am a 45 y.o. white North American male. I have a masters degree in education. I have 22 years experience teaching in North American high schools. I can speak French, Spanish and Mandarin fluently. I am blind. Will it be difficult for me to secure employment in China?

I am a 45 y.o. white North American male. I have a masters degree in education. I have 22 years experience teaching in North American high schools. I can speak French, Spanish and Mandarin fluently. I am disabled; I am wheelchair-bound. Will it be difficult for me to secure employment in China?

By all means, let�s start a campaign to stamp out discrimination in China; ALL discrimination. And, if we are sincere in our intent, then what about Indonesia and Thailand; 2 countries about which I can state with certainty that discrimination is equally as bad as in China.

oiboy · Joined: 05 Mar 2004 Posts: 142 Location: Middle China

spidey,

I think some of those disabilities may hinder job preformance employee safety. or ability to conduct classes. I think skin color does not. (dis - ability) I think the preception of skin color being a disability is a joke. I can't do my job because I have brown skin, oh no!!. I have no idea about N.American culture cuz I don't have white skin, oh no!