Job Discussion Forums

[martinphipps]

Here's a VERY specific question.

In Korea, Korean students say "joo" instead of "zoo". In Taiwan, students will say "roo". What about students in Japan? Do any of them have trouble saying "zoo"?

Martin

[JimDunlop2]

No. The Japanese alphabet has a "z" sound. The basic phoneme chart is as follows:

a i u e o
ka ki ku ke ko
sa shi su se so
ta chi tsu te to
na ni nu ne no
ha hi fu he ho
ma mi mu me mo
ya yu yo
ra ri ru re ro
wa wo n

In addition to these basic sounds, complex sounds and alterations made to the existing phonemes result in aditional consonants. Eg. the sa shi su se so line can become za ji zu ze zo. ka becomes ga, ha becomes pa or ba, ta becomes da, and so on....

So, as long as there is a phonemic equivalent in Japanese pronounciation to the English word in question, there is no problem.

To answer your question, "zoo" as read using the JSL romanization system would be "ZOH" to a Japanese speaker who didn't know that word in English. However, if I spelled it out in katakana as "zu--" (su + ten-ten + a dash to elongate the vowel) it would be pronounced "ZOO" just like an English speaker would say it.

NOTA: In this case, a Japanese-speaker would use JSL to pronounce this (which is essentially modified kunrei-shiki) because Modified Hepburn uses macrons to denote long vowels, instead of double vowels). I know I'm just being nit-picky now, but I should try to be fair and accurate when I talk linguistics.

[markle]

[shmooj]

Actually, Japanese students say doubutsuen - especially high schoolers

[homersimpson]

shmooj,
you magnificent bustard
Elephant!

[Eleckid]

um...the Japanese students I teach at my school, most of them say "tsu" instead of "zoo". The younger students who learned English phonics tend not to have that big of a problem (but a lot still do). I think once the students passes the critical age, almost all of them can't say "zoo" properly. They say "zoo" as "tsu", "brazil" as "brajil", & "mexico" as "mekushiko". My adult students have a hard time learning the /z/, "si" (they say "shi"), "what" to "fat", "wood" to "ood", "earth" to "ass", "think" to "shink", "this" to "tis"...in regards to the /th/ phoneme, HK ppl learned in school as /f/ or /d/ (ex. "the" -> "da", "think" -> "fink") from non-native Eng teachers.

[JimDunlop2]

"tsu" instead of "zoo" -- there is no excuse for that.. Because the "zu" sound exists in Japanese..... But that's a whole other issue... For whatever reason, I think your students are creating a phonemic problem where none exists. My students do that sometimes too and it's often difficult to understand why.

I'm usually a staunch opponent of using katakana to teach English pronounciation, but if I had a stubborn group of youngsters who couldn't say "zoo" (and honestly, I haven't encountered this particular one as a problem before) I probably WOULD go ahead and write katakana "ZU--" on the board...

As for Brajil instead of Brazil that's understandable -- in the Japanese katakana chart there is no "zee" or "see." It's "jee" or "she." Hence, "Brazhil." The "X" is another enigma for Japanese. In the case of "Mexico" it becomes "Me-ku-shi-kou" to agree with its katakanization. So words like sexy become"sekushi." Another good one is "she-she lemon" instead of C.C. Lemon (a Japanese carbonated lemon drink)...

[BradS]

I really don't understand how Japanese adults can have trouble pronouncing some words. A great example is "walk" and "work". "Mexico" is another. So what if a certain sound isn't in your native language? That's no excuse. You certainly wouldn't get away with that back home if you were taking a French lesson would you? No. You would LEARN how to say the sound. Seriously an adult should be able to learn a new sound within 5 minutes. For some reason most Japanese students seem to find it insanely hard.

Any theories why?

[shmooj]

[Glenski]

[Nismo]

I've met foreigners who have lived in Japan for 4 years and studied Japanese and their Japanese pronunciation is atrocious. I must admit, the guy I am thinking of did have a remarkable vocabulary. His only fault was not actually being able to effectively communicate with a Japanese person (it was a one way conversation!).

[spidey]

The muscles in and around the mouth need to learn new technics just as your would if you were learning let's say... tennis for the first time. When we are first learning tennis, our intention is to hit the ball inside the lines. We understand the concept but we are unable to perform the task. We have to teach the muscles how to move before we can even attempt to perform the technics(strokes) correctly. The basic fundamentals must be taught first. Pronunciation takes practice and the time necessary to develop both the muscle strength and finess of movement. We may be able to decipher the sounds in our minds but we are unable to mimic them correctly until we learn how to move our muscles.

Such is the SPORT of Language Learning.

S

[frosty]

[JimDunlop2]

Right. I stand corrected. me-KI-shi-ko. Just looked it up in the dictionary.