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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 2:49 am Post subject: |
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| clark.w.griswald wrote: |
| I mean the concerns about the director in school number 4 have been around for years now � but by all accounts it seems that she is still there. If any company, and this is not a direct criticism of Kojen, really wanted to make their school foreigner friendly, then they would have dealt with that problem a long time ago by transferring her into a position that didn�t involve face to face contact with foreigners. |
I never really looked at the #4 children's department issue before, so I'm a bit behind on that one.
You are certainly spot on about the Taiwanese management style, and doesn't it just leave you scratching your head?
The way to make any headway, I've noticed, is to approach people at the top directly, with all the facts and with support from respected colleagues. Better still of course if this includes locals as well as foreigners. The weight of numbers, a track record that can be documented and determination that the right thing should be done has worked in the past. There's no reason why it shouldn't here.
One thing I can say is that without someone making the complaint formally, nothing will be done. In any company there will be personality clashes, people with their own personal problems and situations that require direct attention from management. The only way to distinguish the latter from the former is to formally complain.
How can Mr. Hou approach the Children's Director in this school and start by saying, "Oh, we've heard somewhere that there are problems in your school", and the Director rightly asks, "Who said so?". What can he say to that?
If someone has direct experience of what Pop Fly is talking about, please make a formal complaint. You are welcome to start the process through me. Pop Fly included, of course.
Chris |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 5:58 am Post subject: |
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It would be very easy to disregard a few un confirmed complaints with no similarities or consistency. However that is not the case with ELSi / Kojen schools. There have been numerous cases filed with the CLA labor arbitration boards across the island. The direct result of some off those cases was the head office forbidding local managers from deducting work deposits. With little to no accountability such decrees are pointless.
Nearly all the complaints filed on ELSi/ Kojen has a consistent theme.
The schools in Taipei are fairly decent places to work. Outside of Taipei it is business as usual Taiwan style. If Kojen really wants to correct the problem,bring in new management. Or better yet encourage the teachers to form a Union.
Good luck,
A. |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:57 am Post subject: |
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| Aristotle wrote: |
| There have been numerous cases filed with the CLA labor arbitration boards across the island. The direct result of some off those cases was the head office forbidding local managers from deducting work deposits. |
I think this is another case of headlining here.
There was one case only of this happening. It happened in the Taichung school some time in 2000. The school was sued (quite rightly) by the teacher. She won (great!) and no Kojen schools have ever asked for such deposits ever since.
Please give us specific details about your "numerous cases", and I'll be happy to respond.
Chris |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:38 am Post subject: |
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| Chris Smith wrote: |
| Aristotle wrote: |
| There have been numerous cases filed with the CLA labor arbitration boards across the island. The direct result of some off those cases was the head office forbidding local managers from deducting work deposits. |
I think this is another case of headlining here.
There was one case only of this happening. It happened in the Taichung school some time in 2000. The school was sued (quite rightly) by the teacher. She won (great!) and no Kojen schools have ever asked for such deposits ever since.
Please give us specific details about your "numerous cases", and I'll be happy to respond.
Chris |
You are absolutely right Chris. I remember coming across this information when I was researching Kojen and Prentice had, as you are, dealt with it so effectively as to not cause me any concern. In fact, the way he dealt with the issue was one of the reasons I chose to work at Kojen.
I must say, I had to laugh at your suggestion of recruiting names and documenting the trials of working at school 4. This was suggested as the way to get transferred out of there to another branch. The idea of anyone at #4 putting their name on anything is entirely laughable. The Dragon Lady has her staff so petrified that the notion of attempting such an action would result in her spies letting her now what was going on, resulting in anyone involved losing hours to the point of basic unemployment.
Chris, I applaud your efforts here, and nothing would give me more pleasure than to hear that Ken Ho has booted her curbside, but this ain't gonna happen. Like I said earlier, KH owes the Dragon family a debt and basically, School 4's Director can operate with impugnity. It's her world and nothing is going to change that.
I also agree that Kojen is one of the best training grounds for newbies. It made me a better teacher, but in a reverse sort of way. I do everything that kojen wouldn't let me do.
I also maintain that Wall Street is an okay place for someone that simply want's a job that is effortless with gauranteed hours. The pay is quite low, but at that time in my life, it was all I needed to live quite comfortably.
But like all aspects of life, there are good and bad. My motivation in sharing my experiences is to give others the opportunities to learn from my mistakes. The (now) VP of Wall Street is a creepy, useless, waste of a suit. He appropriated an idea of mine and got himself appointed lead. When I refused to work under him on my idea, he tried to get me fired by turning an innocent misunderstanding into a situation that he knew was flase, but by the same token, knew it would stir up a hornet's nest. The plan backfired on him and the owner ended up pseudo-forcing me onto the development team. After 3 or 4 months of this creepy guy making a rat's nest outta what was a great concept, I asked for a transfer back to WSI proper. He made it appear to his superiors as if I was resigning. I couldn't be bothered to fight about it. The pay was not that great and there are lots of other opportunities out there. I write so others may beware. As time goes by, I am sure others will back up my allegations.
And as RPD is so set on attempting to tarnish my reputation, I have to wonder, did I flame him for something at Forumosa? This is what usually sets these type of keyboard commandos off. Hey, RPD, so you know I am Toe Save. Kudos on your search abilities. Care to confess who you are at Forumosa so the readers can do their own research as to why you seem so hell-bent on destroying me?
And Clark G....You deserve a nice Thai Vacation for that insight. Well done lad! |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Pop Fly wrote: |
| I must say, I had to laugh at your suggestion of recruiting names and documenting the trials of working at school 4. This was suggested as the way to get transferred out of there to another branch. The idea of anyone at #4 putting their name on anything is entirely laughable. The Dragon Lady has her staff so petrified that the notion of attempting such an action would result in her spies letting her now what was going on, resulting in anyone involved losing hours to the point of basic unemployment. |
I see what you mean about the suggested way to get transferred.
There is a key difference now, though.
Firstly, there is an inbuilt fear about dealing with upper management in any company. It's a fear about being sidelined and swept under the table.
If there's only one person (you in this case) with the problem, then I can understand how you would feel powerless in this kind of position. However, you have said this situation affects many people, and that makes a world of difference.
You also said that many of the people you cared about have now left the company. I think the abovementioned fear is no longer there for you or them. If you can agree to talk about this with details and names, we'll be able to contact these other people. I'm very sure they'll be invited out for coffee or lunch by managers from other schools (if they are local teachers). They'll be asked some basic questions about their experience in that school, and from this Mr. Hou will take the appropriate action.
It's really that simple, I assure you. Please think about it again.
Chris |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Chris Smith wrote: |
| Pop Fly wrote: |
| I must say, I had to laugh at your suggestion of recruiting names and documenting the trials of working at school 4. This was suggested as the way to get transferred out of there to another branch. The idea of anyone at #4 putting their name on anything is entirely laughable. The Dragon Lady has her staff so petrified that the notion of attempting such an action would result in her spies letting her now what was going on, resulting in anyone involved losing hours to the point of basic unemployment. |
I see what you mean about the suggested way to get transferred.
There is a key difference now, though.
Firstly, there is an inbuilt fear about dealing with upper management in any company. It's a fear about being sidelined and swept under the table.
If there's only one person (you in this case) with the problem, then I can understand how you would feel powerless in this kind of position. However, you have said this situation affects many people, and that makes a world of difference.
You also said that many of the people you cared about have now left the company. I think the abovementioned fear is no longer there for you or them. If you can agree to talk about this with details and names, we'll be able to contact these other people. I'm very sure they'll be invited out for coffee or lunch by managers from other schools (if they are local teachers). They'll be asked some basic questions about their experience in that school, and from this Mr. Hou will take the appropriate action.
It's really that simple, I assure you. Please think about it again.
Chris |
Chris, its not that simple and you know it. The "people" I care about are mostly Taiwanese. YOu know as well as I do, not 1 of them is going to stand up and be counted. Read my history on tis thread and others. The people I worked with were great. Talented, hard-working, pleasant, intelligent, gentle people. It's not the way in these here parts and challenging (ok, bordering on challenging) me to provide a guest list for a sit-down continues to give me fits and giggles.
Tell ya what I'm gonna do....I'll talk to some of her former foreign minions that are still around, damn, the best one is leaving Sunday....and see if they are interested. I'll link some people to this thread. If we can manage a quorem, or a foursome, we'll give it a shot. But off the top of my head...can't really see it happening.....and really, I don't care to put that much energy into it. She has lived as a spectre in my life for almost 3 years and recent events have effectively and decisively purged her from it.
Life is good, let's all holla!!!! |
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Pop Fly
Joined: 15 Feb 2003
Posts: 429
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 12:43 pm Post subject: |
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A point was brought up in this thread about the lack of forward thinking prevelant in management and ownership....
This adopted land of ours is truly an obviation-less land.
I am discovering that by trying to foresee pitfalls in ideas and plans, I am seen to be making waves. It's a very tricky business sharing concerns with colleagues when The Brass is around. And The Brass is an admirable man. He has a lot of really wild and crazy ideas. Our team is growing and we all feel excited about the potential. I would even go so far as to say that my work space is as open to suggestion, and encouragedly so, as any in Taiwan.
And still, this tightrope exists that we all must walk. Don't rock the boat.
But I am learning.  |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Pop Fly wrote: |
| Tell ya what I'm gonna do....I'll talk to some of her former foreign minions that are still around, damn, the best one is leaving Sunday....and see if they are interested. I'll link some people to this thread. If we can manage a quorem, or a foursome, we'll give it a shot. But off the top of my head...can't really see it happening.....and really, I don't care to put that much energy into it. She has lived as a spectre in my life for almost 3 years and recent events have effectively and decisively purged her from it. |
That's great news. I'm very happy to see this.
As for local Taiwanese people not wanting to deal with this kind of thing, you are right, but they can be persuaded if they can see it's for a good purpose. Like I said, I've seen it done before.
Following this course will get to the route of the problem and we'll be able to deal with any impropriety.
Thanks,
Chris |
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Rice Paddy Daddy
Joined: 11 Jul 2004
Posts: 425
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:10 pm Post subject: |
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Are you two a couple of business sharks or teachers?
Holy schit!
Money, business, ideas, teams, open to new ideas, and so on.
Whatever happened to just worrying about classroom teaching?
Taiwan has become a haven for shysters and spin doctors - not teachers  |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 12:35 am Post subject: |
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RicePaddyDaddy, what exactly is it that you have offered either Taiwan or this forum, that makes you feel that you are in a position to judge others. Your comments on this forum have not exhibited any kind of overwhelming greatness on your behalf. You just come across as a negative nancy that has nothing of any value to offer.
By the way, you have made reference to the discussions at forumosa on a number of occasions, and even tried to use these discussions as a way to try an out a member of this forum. Why not come clean and let everyone know what your username is over there at forumosa? |
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Chris Smith
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 86
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 3:32 am Post subject: |
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| Rice Paddy Daddy wrote: |
| Taiwan has become a haven for shysters and spin doctors - not teachers |
You should really keep your eye on the point.
We're working on something to benefit current and future teachers, and at least give former teachers a sense that due process has finally been followed ('though a little late).
Chris |
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markholmes
Joined: 21 Jun 2004
Posts: 661
Location: Wengehua
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 4:42 am Post subject: |
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I worked for Kojen in Kaohsiung and Taipei and know Chris and John (the manager in Kaohsiung). Throughly nice blokes both of them.
I had a good time working for Kojen with the exception of one person who ended up making mine and my wifes lives quite miserable.
A few weeks before we left things really came to a head. This person, a preschool boss in Neihu, was completely incompetent. After having had a few group meetings with preschool teachers from other Kojen preschools we realised it wasn't just us who felt like this.
We arranged a meeting with Prentice and a senior manager to discuss the problems. They listened to us and took it all in and I believed were actually quite shocked by what we were saying.
Anyway we left a couple of weeks later. The manager concerned was transfered to Kaohsiung a couple of weeks after that and resigned a month or so after that. Whether she jumped or was pushed I have no idea, but I definitely think going to the top helped.
There were a couple of other teachers present at the meeting who still work for Kojen, one of them was promoted not long after this meeting took place, so there doesn't appear to have been any repercussions for speaking up.
The deposit taking in Taichung does seem to have been an isolated incident. I worked for Kojen at both ends of the country and there was no deposit taking in either place.
Aristotle wrote:
| Quote: |
| The schools in Taipei are fairly decent places to work. Outside of Taipei it is business as usual Taiwan style. |
The schools in Kaohsiung were no better or worse than the schools in Taipei. The system is the same everywhere, but your director can make a real difference to your life in Taiwan.
Pop Fly wrote:
| Quote: |
| I remember coming across this information [regarding Prentices dealing with the deposit issue] when I was researching Kojen and Prentice had, as you are, dealt with it so effectively as to not cause me any concern. In fact, the way he dealt with the issue was one of the reasons I chose to work at Kojen. |
Thats why I applied too. |
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pcowsill
Joined: 18 Dec 2004
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 10:57 pm Post subject: Working at Kojen |
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I have worked at Kojen for years and I know most of the academic directors being singled out for persecution in this forum. It's hard for me to believe that this stuff has been going on at School 4. And I know for a fact that the director at School 5 is neither humorless nor bitter. He is a bit ashen, I admit, but the condition results from a nausea he feels cheering for a football team that never wins instead of, as suggested, a lack of vitamins. As I haven't worked at either school for at least a couple of years, I can't say for certain that there have been no personality clashes. Obviously the writers in this forum (following the Kojen-thread) feel strongly about what they are saying. In making their case, however, wouldn't they be better served by leaving out the personal attacks? They are very hurtful and offputting.
Since I do work in the adult programs at School 1 and the Nan Shih Chiao School (the adult programs at both schools are run by the same director), I can vouch for Luisa Sia, who was in charge until last October. I'll list off some of the reasons 50% of foreign teachers working at these two branches (teaching adults) have been doing so for over a decade:
1.) She's friendly, warm and outgoing, not moody.
2.) She's supportive. She sticks up for her teachers and makes sure that they have training.
3.) She tries to get her teachers their raises ASAP.
4.) She's generous, and spends lots of her free time with teachers or staff.
5.) She's usually straightforward. She certainly doesn't spend her time gossiping or making disparaging comments about others.
6.) She doesn't put pressure on teachers that teach well.
7.) She lets teachers take all the (unpaid) vacation-time that they want.
Working in either of these Kojen branches can be trying, but what job is not? Neither branch should be confused with the hellish nightmare the writers in this forum make Kojen out to be. |
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Aristotle
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1388
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
We arranged a meeting with Prentice and a senior manager to discuss the problems. They listened to us and took it all in and I believed were actually quite shocked by what we were saying.
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From my understanding the former ELSi director Prentice who came to garner so much respect from so many resigned after more than decade working for ELSi immediately after the name change and the new mandate (profit first and foremost).
Kojen expanded into an Early Childhood English Immersion market right before the Ministry of Education (a.k.a. Ministry of Racist Purity) began attempting to regulate English out of Taiwan.
Those currently working for Kojen and those thinking of doing so should know that Kojen (actually Taiwan in genral) is a sinking ship. Those with the foresight to see that have long since moved off.
Last edited by Aristotle on Tue Dec 21, 2004 3:00 am; edited 2 times in total |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Tue Dec 21, 2004 2:56 am Post subject: |
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| Now that pcowsil has outted someone and mentioned names, I wonder how long this thread will last? |
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