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Lauramarie
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:57 am Post subject: Seeking advice and guidance |
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Hi there,
I'm very new to the forum, but from what I have read so far there are many good insights to be had!
I am very seriously considering teaching English overseas for 2005, and I am just starting out in the research phase, but I do have some questions I'm hoping some of you may have some suggestions for me.
A little bit of background on me: I have a degree (BComm) from university, but my boyfriend doesn't. He completed a number of college courses, and has credits (Mech Engineering and Police Foundations), but not a diploma. We both have excellent English skills, we're open minded and flexible, but we have never taught before.
We both want to embark on this journey together, as we both have the opportunity right now to do so. I have always been interested in volunteering in Africa, and I feel this would be a good stepping stone for me, and perhaps open up other possibilities for the future. As for money, we would both like to return with some savings - I don't expect a whole lot, but I figure with the both of us earning money and sharing living expenses, it shouldn't be too hard to do, no?
I've been reading that without a degree, working in Japan is illegal - is this true? If so, then that seems like it is out of the question, unless there are ways to get around that...sadly, we were considering Japan very seriously prior to learning that little fact. What other areas offer decent pay/positions and don't require a university degree where both of us could find jobs? We would like somewhere fairly warm (at least better than these Canadian winters we've endured!), and pretty different in terms of culture and lifestyle. I'm starting to think about Thailand, Indonesia, Vietnam, Korea, and Malaysia...
I've also been reading the pros and cons of getting an online TEFL degree....this is probably the most realistic course of action for us because we do work full-time and can't afford the time off. Is this even worthwhile to pursue? Do these certificates really help in getting a job overseas?
A lot of people have mentioned "legitimate job offers" - how do you discern between what's legit or not? Now that I am starting to sift through job postings, is there anything I should be wary of?
I think this is a good start...I welcome and appreciate your feedback, as it's hard to know where to start sometimes! Thanks a bunch!
Laura  |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 7:09 am Post subject: options, options, options |
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Good questions...that post should stay up as the model for all questions.
Let me try to help.
First, without a degree, your boyfriend is pretty much restricted to illegal work anywhere in the world. Sorry. But, the good news is that this is common practice. Odds are, you yourself will also find illegal work. The rest of the world simply isn't as strict as the the 'first-world' is.
Second, an online TEFL degree is good for neither of you. Yes, the price looks good but without that experience in front of real students, as a real TEFL course gives you, then you won't even be able to find an illegal job. Good thing you didn't post your email because your box would be full by now with offers from the TEFL online lobby.
Third...legitimate job offers. That's a hard one. the only advice I can give is that you do your research after getting an offer. Demand to get contact info for other teachers working, or anything verifiable through an embassy, a non-affiliated org (like TESOL inc, IAETEFL, etc) and read the complete history of postings on this forum...twice. There is a scam thread headlining all country forums. Read it, espcially for Asia.
Other than that, you seem to be in good shape. I've trained boyfriend/girlfriend teams before in Latin America. It does indeed cut down your expenses. The only trouble you may have is getting schools to accept/hire you as team. There is a little hesitating when that comes up. I suggest applying separately.
Good luck! |
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go_ABs
Joined: 08 Aug 2004
Posts: 507
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:09 am Post subject: |
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Hi Laura,
You and your boyfriend could consider China.
I came with my girlfriend here almost a year ago. Despite her not having a degree, we were inundated with job offers. Some looked legit, some less so. I think the only ways to guess are to (as Guy said) research as much as possible, and use your common sense. If they aren't forthcoming with details, be wary. You'll want to know answers to many specific questions, and a good employer will be happy to give them.
There are lots of people who have been around longer than me who know great details about Chinese visas, though it seems they are not supposed to be given to those without degrees. But here, as in many parts of the world, it is often who you know rather than what you know. But make sure you do get a working visa. My girlfriend and I both have working visas, even though she has no degree.
Guy would appear to disagree, but we found it was a pull-factor that we were applying as a couple. We sent a joint cover letter, photo, and both of our resumes when applying for jobs. I imagined that employers saw this as an opportunity to employ two teachers but only pay for one furnished apartment. We got heaps of offers, but then again, we also applied for heaps of jobs.
As for the online TEFL course - it's better than nothing. My girlfriend and I did a short course, and found it highly useful. If your boyfriend has no degree and no teaching experience, then this is at least something he can show employers that might convince them to hire him.
We are working in a small Chinese city - it's often boring but cheap DVDs keep us sane. We will go home after working here 12 months with about US$6500 savings each. Not heaps, but better than nothing. And we haven't exactly been scrimping on the weekly budget.
We teach about 15 hours a week, have a free furnished apartment and get four weeks paid holiday. On the other hand, we get stared at something chronic, and rarely see any other foreigners. All I can say is that you and your partner ought to be REAL sure you can stand spending a LOT of time together...
Good luck in your job search! You can PM me if you wish. |
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sojourner
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 738
Location: nice, friendly, easy-going (ALL) Peoples' Republic of China
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 8:22 am Post subject: |
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Hi Laura,
Further to Guy's comments. There are plenty of jobs in China. I have come across some non-graduates who are working in the college and uni sectors. I have also come across a number of wife/husband and bf/gf teams working in schools and unis. If you, yourself, manage to get a uni job, they may well offer your bf one as well, albeit at a lower salary. Avoid language schools - they may pay more than what unis/colleges do, but split shifts may be involved. Also, unis/colleges provide generous holiday breaks. PM me if you require the name and email address for an efficient and conscientious recruiter.
Guy is right about online TEFL courses.The best known TESL courses are the CELTA and Trinity programmes -neither can be done online. As both courses involve having to teach real students, they would provide you with an insight as to what real ESL teaching is all about. Yes, I'm fully aware that those two programmes are pretty expensive ! However, if you intend heading towards SE Asia, you might wish to consider enrolling in a CELTA course in Bangkok - it would, I'd imagine, be considerably heaper than doing the same sort of course in Canada !
You mentioned that your bf has passed several college courses. Having a degree would certainly enhance his chances of getting a reasonable job in the ESL world. Consequently, he might wish to consider enrolling in an online or distance education bachelor's programme. Some universities have articulation policies, which means that your bf could be given credit for some of the college subjects that he has already completed.
Good luck.
Peter |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Thu Dec 09, 2004 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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| First, without a degree, your boyfriend is pretty much restricted to illegal work anywhere in the world. |
Sorry, Guy, that is not true. In Japan, anyway, you don't need a degree for the following visas, all of which permit you to work (some only PT):
spouse visa
dependent visa
student visa
working holiday visa
Laura's bf is eligible for only the last one. If they get married, and she has a FT job, he is eligible for the second one. If he enrolls in a Japanese school, he is eligible for the third one. If he married a Japanese woman (heaven forbid for Laura's sake), he is eligible for the first one.
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| What other areas offer decent pay/positions and don't require a university degree where both of us could find jobs? |
Frankly, Laura, in your bf's position, none. He would need ten years of experience to land a job in a non-teaching area in Japan, and those jobs almost always require high fluency in Japanese as well. Stick to getting the WHV for now. It's only good for a year, but that's better than nothing.
| Quote: |
| Do these certificates really help in getting a job overseas? |
In Japan, no.
| Quote: |
| A lot of people have mentioned "legitimate job offers" - how do you discern between what's legit or not? |
Regarding Japan...
if they won't let you discuss things with current foreign teachers, skip them.
if they have a contract with a lot of legalese, tread lightly.
if the contract has lots of clauses and restrictions, red flag.
if they want you to come RIGHT AWAY and say you shouldn't worry about that visa because they'll get one for you RIGHT AWAY, tell them no thanks.
if they won't put up the key money for your apartment or at least help you find a place and furnish it, look elsewhere.
if they want you to live with the manager's family or in a back room of the school (both have happened), try another place.
if after they hire you and you come on a tourist status, yet you seem to hear about a lot of "delays" or "errors that will soon be fixed" in the visa paperwork, beware.
if the application form goes into detail about your family and religion, kiss the job goodbye.
if they want YOU to pay THEM some idiotic fee, even 10,000 yen as some sort of entry payment (refundable or otherwise), look the other way. |
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Lauramarie
Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 6
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:30 am Post subject: |
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Wow....certainly a lot of food for thought!
| Quote: |
| First, without a degree, your boyfriend is pretty much restricted to illegal work anywhere in the world. Sorry. But, the good news is that this is common practice. Odds are, you yourself will also find illegal work. The rest of the world simply isn't as strict as the the 'first-world' is. |
Guy, could you kindly elaborate on this point? I'm a little confused as to why I would find illegal work if I could work legally with a degree....are illegal jobs more lucrative? And more importantly, what are the consequences of taking an illegal job? When you say it's common practice, is that true in Japan and Korea as well?
| Quote: |
| Guy would appear to disagree, but we found it was a pull-factor that we were applying as a couple. We sent a joint cover letter, photo, and both of our resumes when applying for jobs. I imagined that employers saw this as an opportunity to employ two teachers but only pay for one furnished apartment. We got heaps of offers, but then again, we also applied for heaps of jobs. |
Actually, it's funny that you mentioned that, as I never actually considered applying as a team...I figured we would both apply to jobs in the same city. I will certainly consider, but not expect, getting jobs as a team. Thanks go_ABs, I will probably end up pm'ing you once I've done some more research.
| Quote: |
| Guy is right about online TEFL courses.The best known TESL courses are the CELTA and Trinity programmes -neither can be done online. As both courses involve having to teach real students, they would provide you with an insight as to what real ESL teaching is all about. Yes, I'm fully aware that those two programmes are pretty expensive ! However, if you intend heading towards SE Asia, you might wish to consider enrolling in a CELTA course in Bangkok - it would, I'd imagine, be considerably heaper than doing the same sort of course in Canada! |
I appreciate your and Guy's sentiments in this regard, Peter. In fact, it's one of the aspects I'm most torn about. The online course appeals to me not because of the money so much, but the flexibilty. Both my boyfriend and I work full time, so taking a month to do a full time course is unlikely, with bills, debts and all. We'd both prefer completing it before making the drastic move and trying to get it in Asia. I completely agree that having the teaching time in front of students is invaluable, so I have been considering a 2-week intensive program (I read about one in Barcelona). Would that be a good idea? And would it help us in getting a better job? We're really not looking for the stars here in terms of salary and position....it's more about the experience, really.
And finally Glenski, thanks for shedding some light on the visa situation. Where is it best to apply for a working visa - in Canada? And what are the requirements when applying for a visa, and how long does it take to process? Do companies require you to have a visa before considering you?
| Quote: |
Frankly, Laura, in your bf's position, none. He would need ten years of experience to land a job in a non-teaching area in Japan, and those jobs almost always require high fluency in Japanese as well. Stick to getting the WHV for now. It's only good for a year, but that's better than nothing.
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I'm sorry Glenski, I wasn't very clear in my question. I meant what other regions/countries should we be considering that don't necessarily require a university degree for teaching jobs?
Thanks again for all of your thoughts....it's truly appreciated to a newbie like me!
Laura |
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Guy Courchesne
Joined: 10 Mar 2003
Posts: 9650
Location: Mexico City
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 3:53 am Post subject: hmmm |
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| When you say it's common practice, is that true in Japan and Korea as well? |
I'm in Latin America, so better that someone over in Asia answer that specifically. Generally speaking, illegal jobs are neither more or less lucrative. I was trying only to point out the vast number of ilegal (let me use under-the-table) positions, all over the world.
The consequences of taking an under-the-table job are deportation and being barred from re-entering a country and possibly fines. Again, someone with more experience in Asia should comment on that. In Latin America, I fell comfortable stating that most people work without a wrk permit.
I neither condone nor recommend working illegally...I simply point out its prevalence.
On applying as a team, or rather, indicating to any one employer that you are bf/gf, in Latin America anyway, is not a good idea. The reason is that DOSes would see you both as a future problem, SHOULD you suddenly decide to quit without notice (apparently common gringo practice). As someone who has placed teachers into jobs, this DOS attitude is quite common here. I would have expected the same from some parts of Asia, but I could be wrong.
If a 2 week intensive program offers a good practicum, and is known for producing good teachers, then you should consider. We ourselves offer a 2 week program, packed on hours, lots of practicum.
If going to Barcelona to study, and subsequently work, you would most definitely not be offered a work permit, in any EU country. They are strict on non-EU (particularly North Americans) working in the EU. However, as I mentioned before, there are many, many people working under-the-table.
| Quote: |
spouse visa
dependent visa
student visa
working holiday visa |
It would appear you either have wedding bells in your future, or a costly tuition to pay at a Japanese University going this route... |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Glenski, thanks for shedding some light on the visa situation. Where is it best to apply for a working visa - in Canada? ? |
You usually don't apply for the work visa yourself. You find an employer willing to sponsor you, then you provide him with the documentation needed to get the work visa. He gives it to immigration along with his own required paperwork. So, you can do this while you are in your home country or in Japan.
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| And what are the requirements when applying for a visa, and how long does it take to process? |
Requirements are a bachelor's degree (any subject will do). The paperwork you must supply include an original or certified copy of your degree, sometimes your course transcripts (not usually), a photocopy of your ID page of your passport, a resume that lists your HS graduation date as well as your university details, and perhaps a couple of passport-sized photos. Depending on the time of year, it may take 4-8 weeks until you get the Certificate of Eligibility stamped in your passport and returned to you. Then, when you enter the country, your visa is activated.
If you are in Japan when the processing starts, you MIGHT have to leave the country to complete final processing. You might not. No standard has been established yet.
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| Do companies require you to have a visa before considering you |
Some do, yes. Others may sponsor a visa, or they may NOT. |
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yamahuh
Joined: 23 Apr 2004
Posts: 1033
Location: Karaoke Hell
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| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 4:41 am Post subject: |
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There are a lot of negative opinions re:online Tesol courses. Some of these are entirely justified I'm sure and it's true that no online course can prepare you adequately for standing in front of 60 or 70 students.
That being said (in China at least) it is certainly better than nothing and will make you more attractive to potential employers. There are a number of good courses out there, do your research. I found one from an institution called Coventry House International in T.O which is recognised and accredited by Tesl Canada if you complete an on-site practicum. The course is approximately 200 hours online and is very thorough for an introductory course. I opted to do my practicum in China as i just didn't have the time while still in Canada. For this I must submit 10 lesson plans and comments from an observing teacher. This will give me my Tesl Canada certification which you must have if you ever want to teach ESL in Canada.
I was working full time and teaching part time in a non language related field so 'online' was the only way I could find the time to do it. I did my course over the winter and after I had received my certificate I was inundated with replies to my online resume.
Oh yeah, apply as a couple if you can, even if you get an offer and your boyfriend doesn't, ask if there may be a position for him at the same school. That is what I did for my wife. She is now teaching Primary school at the same place as me. She makes less RMB because she doesn't have a degree (only a diploma) and doesn't have a Tesl certificate.
The fact of the matter is that there are loads of places that would be glad to hire you both, do your research and take the plunge...
Good Luck |
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