Job Discussion Forums

[AsiaTraveller]

[Roger]

[quote="AsiaTraveller"][quote="talkdoc"]One example is that a teacher who has been exposed to some detailed descriptions of (and research results about) language interference might be better able to isolate errors and work on them. Such information can be encountered in courses or seminars in phonology and in psycholinguistics, or sometimes in general introductions to applied linguistics and/or language acquisition. A good M.A. TESOL programme would offer topical seminars that include such work in depth.

So whereas the Cambridge textbooks aren't region-specific, the teacher who knows something about Mandarin-to-English language interference can use the Cambridge exercises with some predictive and corrective strategies already at the ready. The EFL teacher who trains herself/himself to teach English to Mandarin speakers will have the benefit of such strategies.

quote]

That's a nice pointer, but perhaps not completely relevant to us in China. I agree, of course, that being bilingual oneself is a big asset. First of all, this helps you understand your first language better. It also enables you to identify your students' needs and problems more easily. A good teacher realises when his students fall behind the level he has chosen.

But for FTs to function this way - as teachers who monitor their charges' English production while anticipating their linguistic problems misses something.
Our employers only hirfor a year, seldom for two or more. They fail to integrate us in their curricula on a long-term basis. And, as hinted in my previous post, there are psychological and political considerations that keep us from playing a more active role. It is widely assumed that foreign, especially U.S. American employees have political ideas incompatible with socialist Chinese ones, and the schools want to have a free hand in removing us conveniently enough without too much bloodletting. If you don't buy into this argument, recycle some old threads about why people lost their jobs.

We don't really need to think too much about what we could do in order to improve things; we are assigned a very limited role beyond which it is nearly impossible to grow. Conversa have serious conversations with adults themselves in their own language! To me, this looks like trying to push a square peg into a round hole. And why do they do this? Not because they want their own young people to become fluent at English - and potentially emigrate. Emigration is NOT what their leadership wants them to think of. This is what the students or their parents hope they can eventually do, which is at cross purposes with official education goals.
Thus, allowing foreign teachers to practise English with Chinese students is a placebo designed to spread a sort of intellectual peace and to show how China is opening up to the world.
But their own teaching methodologies interfere so much with the students' absorbing of English that the result must be deplorable.
Even if they wanted us to be Mandarin speakers - which, as a matter of fact they don't really want - I can't see how being bilingual myself in Mandarin and English would help my learners. I am more than bilingual, and I am fully capable of predicting in what way their mother tongue interferes with their English production; case in point: not one student in most classes (the odd exception perhaps) has no problem with the he/she = Chinese ta sound. Clearly, their CHinese English teachers who should be bilingual, don't handle this competently themselves. Thus, our students have bad role models. What can we do when they come to our class? IT's usually too late for them to thoroughly brush up and improve!

[Talkdoc]

[oatgnist]

TD:
I wouldn't say that I am teaching "language skills" (and I don't just mean this as a matter of semantics), nor have I been asked to do so. I have been asked to provide several classes on oral English and to use a non-EFL text on tourism in order to do so. At the beginning of each class, I have the students read the passages outloud, correcting their pronounciation as they do. I then reread the passage to the class and devote part of my time to reviewing vocabularly and word usage and the rest of the time addressing content. Based on the quality and extent of the discussions, I would say the vast majority of the students in attendance do possess enough English to follow the content.

Classes "ON" Oral English ? I really wonder what they/you mean ?

Using a non-EFL text ? Sure, many will understand the content because their reading level is higher than their speaking level. How are you helping them to improve their spoken language (other than pronunciation errors) ?

You said use of New Interchange was enough to guide methodology but you have evidently not imported CLT (Communicative Language Teaching) methodology to these Tourism classes. Perhaps you don't think it useful. You are certainly teaching very much in the Chinese teachers' way.

Do you have expertise in tourism ?

I am sorry, it just sounds like an ill-conceived course. As Tom Jones likes to say, "It's not unusual ...."

I really recommend you put together a course YOU want to teach and sell it to them. If you don't want to go the TESOL road, fine ... teach them something about the "West" through the medium of English.

[oatgnist]

[i]This has been my point all along which is why I still believe, given our limited role here, interpersonal characteristics such as being personable, adaptable, culturally sensitive and responsive, are far more predictive of success in teaching in China than a TEFL certificate or a formal degree. [/i]

These characteristics are important to teachers anywhere.

Equally, University teachers in their home countries are allowed to be brusque, unshaven and eccentric. Secondary teachers less so, primary much less ...

TESOL is rather a special zone, especially outside of the home country and in China, well .... !

You really need all of the above.

There's truth in your thinking but longer term you will see students differentiate. University leaders (& colleagues) don't always like good foreign teachers, though.

[Talkdoc]

Oatgnist - thank you for your opinions regarding the appropriateness of my classroom teaching.

So I can better put your advice and feedback into perspective, would you also provide me with a brief description of your education and experience? I have to believe, at the very least, you hold a doctorate in an English-teaching related field with many years of related and tenured, university teaching and research experience. But before reconsidering the appropriateness of my teaching methodology and the legitimacy of my work, I would just like to make certain.

Doc

[oatgnist]

Talkdoc : I prefer not to provide those details here. I don't have a Ph.D. I am simply a very experienced TESOL teacher.

I am not trying to attack you in any way.

I really was trying to help. China can put the most capable people into situations of (perceived) helplessness. I should probably say, ESPECIALLY the most capable. Anyway, they're experts thereof !

PM me and I'll give you my email address.

[Lee_Odden]

You know Doc for a smart guy, you seem to be having a lot of trouble grasping a very simple and self-evident fact from these forums.

Once you complete a TEFL course, you become an expert in everything. You don't need a PhD or ANY prior teaching experience to become one either. That's the beauty of it.

You could have saved yourself a lot of time and effort. All you really needed to be an expert here (on this forum) is a TEFL certificate and a few years of EFL teaching experience in Asia. Then you too would be an expert on EFL teaching, teaching in general, how to determine the learning needs of your students, effective university curricula, Chinese culture and, last but not least, political correctness.

Get this through your head - All of your education, teaching, practice and research experience in psychology are useless, meaningless and entirely non-transferable here. (What a joke! The Chinese don't even know what psychology is. You'd be more useful in China trying to sell the Encyclopedia Britannica door to door.) And to make matters worse, you're an American!!! Ha! I sincerely hope we do NOT have to tell you this again.

In the words of the great and immortal Dazai "Asia levels the playing field".

[Talkdoc]

Oatgnist - thanks for the words. Mei guanxi.

Doc

[oatgnist]

Not just words. I see your sincerity and your difficulty. Send me a PM and we can discuss elsewhere.

[Lee_Odden]

And while I'm at it Doc, there's some more advice I'd like to give you.

From now on when you have something to say, do it simply. Any idiot with a computer can use a word processing program to compose his replies. Stop it! If you want to add something here, fine, that's okay but you don't need to give everything you say so much thought. As far as your writing goes, try using simpler sentences - you use too many long, drawn-out compound sentences and it's very annoying. And another thing, people read these forums to get information, not to build their vocabulary. I am getting sick and tired of always having to read a doctoral thesis with a dictionary everytime you have something to say. You are not proving anything to anybody other than you are just a smart-assed elitist - a lot of people here write a lot better than you do because they just say what they have to say without worrying about errors. And stop using iron-clad logic and the clarity of crystal to always hid or distort the truth - those type of tricks may work in academia but in case you haven't noticed, they don't fly very well here! A word to the wise.

I have only said these things to you because I am your friend and I see all the difficulties you are having contributing properly to these forums.

Please PM me for details and to discuss this further in private.

[badtyndale]

Before you all get too cosy stroking each other in the personal massage parlour perhaps you could get around to considering the question as originally posed. I, for one, would like to hear constructive suggestions on the matter.

I would also like to know if Lee-Odden had to pay to have that T-shirt printed or if it was donated.

[2 over lee]

TEFL methodology is somewhat more than a 4 week course, that is but an introduction.

Some quality replies have been given to Doc's ( seems your Bull Terrier has got of his leash again) question, I don't presume to compete but here goes:

Given the criteria you've outlined its going to be hard to give an answer in favour of EFl methodology. Lets start by just excluding one of your criteria: sensitivity to culture. Two 33 year old teachers, both of whom have taught for 10 years and have won numerous awards for teaching, quit their jobs in Brisbane, Australia as Chemistry teachers and head to China. By coincidence they both end up at Chengsu University of technology. They are both assigned to teach Freshmen Oral English starting in February 2005. Both Sam and Zak quit their jobs in the previous December. Sam did a TEFL course over the summer. Sam is aware:

1 That he must check his instructions thrice before students begin an activity.
2 Mandarin lacks articles, genders and tenses.
3 of the importance of eliciting answers
4 of the phonetic alphabet

All of the above apart from perhaps three are not neccessarily key parts of high school teaching. My father is a high school teacher in inner city Auckland. The racial make-up of his school is 40% white, 20% oriental, 20% Indian and 20% polynesian. We've dicussed the language issues many of his students face in his English classes. He does not have the time, given his syllabus, to slow down for 2nd language students. Many of his students are also put into ESL English classes as a supplement, in these classes the style of teaching is quite different: more role-play, less formal, more group work. I'm sure Zak would catch up to Sam in his knowledge of points 1-4 above( a list I'm sure others can add to) after a year or so in China. He would perhaps consult the internet and collegues as well, therefore becoming aware of some ESl teaching techniques.

The key word again is 'adaptive' and some people are naturals, it may be that ESL methodology is merely common sense, I suspect there's more to it, I'd like to hear someone with the DELTAs comments. Coming back to Doc's original criteria given that Sam and Zak both adapted to the culture in China, Sam's head start over Zak may have gone. Both teachers however I'm sure could continue to enrich there teaching by learning more about techniques for ESL teaching. If Zak had made no atempt to change his teaching methods from Australia, I don't think he would be as successful as Sam.

[2 over lee]

It seems I've forgotten to mention the New Interchange textbook. Much of the TEFL course I did concentrated on how to adapt such textbooks to specific learners. I think such a skill would be invaluble in China when mny of the situations and role-plays in such books create supreme mystification amongst the life exp of nil Chinese information receptacles.

[2 over lee]

Lee_Odden wrote: