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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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 Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Glenski is not specifically recommending this--or any--of the books on his list. |
That's right. I have read one of those Wharton books and feel the same way.
Oh, and getting these titles took about 15 minutes with a simple keyword search. |
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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:40 am Post subject: |
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Thank you, Attorney taikibansei. And thanks, now, also to your client, Mr. Glenski 
re: paulh. For the most part, hogwan=juku=buxiban. They don't use the same characters, but for all practical purposes, they are the same. I've taught in all three cultures. They all supplement regular classes and teach all sorts of other things. The biggest difference is that in Japan, as far as I am aware, language schools with foreigners are viewed and referred to as language schools rather than juku. In Korea and Taiwan, language schools are called hogwan and buxiban. But most hogwan and buxiban are like juku in Japan, local teachers drilling kids in school stuff or teaching other things. |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:30 am Post subject: |
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| myesl wrote: |
Thank you, Attorney taikibansei. And thanks, now, also to your client, Mr. Glenski
re: paulh. For the most part, hogwan=juku=buxiban. They don't use the same characters, but for all practical purposes, they are the same. I've taught in all three cultures. They all supplement regular classes and teach all sorts of other things. The biggest difference is that in Japan, as far as I am aware, language schools with foreigners are viewed and referred to as language schools rather than juku. In Korea and Taiwan, language schools are called hogwan and buxiban. But most hogwan and buxiban are like juku in Japan, local teachers drilling kids in school stuff or teaching other things. |
I would have to disagree. I have worked in a hogwan and I think it is more more like an eikaiwa than a juku. Jukus help students pass tests for their regular school, hogwans have nothing to do with the school system in Korea. |
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myesl
Joined: 04 Jun 2004
Posts: 307
Location: Luckily not in China.
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| Posted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 1:03 pm Post subject: |
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As I explained in my post, the one difference is that in Korea and Taiwan, hogwan and buxiban are terms used both for eikaiwa and the other stuff (school lessons, or whatever), most schools being one or the other, as in Japan, but being called by the same term. In Japan, while juku do teach English, generally they don't have a foreign teacher (as far as I knew).
Gordon, you taught at one sort of hogwan, the eikaiwa sort. Had you inquired of the locals, you would have learned that there is another sort of hogwan, identical to juku. |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 6:17 am Post subject: Tell me about teaching English in Japan |
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So Glenski's point is that there are a lot of books on teaching English in Asia but most of them aren't very good?
Right.
Martin |
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Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:00 am Post subject: Re: Tell me about teaching English in Japan |
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| martinphipps wrote: |
So Glenski's point is that there are a lot of books on teaching English in Asia but most of them aren't very good?
Right.
Martin |
No, Glenski's point is, "What makes yours any better than the plentiful selection already printed?" |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 7:11 am Post subject: |
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And the authors may have even stepped foot in the country they are talking about. Isn't that a novel concept.  |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 9:39 am Post subject: |
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martin,
Are you a native English speaker? How hard it is to understand this comment? (emphasis added)
From me:
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I have read one of those Wharton books and feel the same way. [as myesl]
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nismo hit the nail on the head. I suspect he would have hit martin if he had a chance. |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:20 am Post subject: Tell me about teaching in Japan |
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| Gordon wrote: |
| And the authors may have even stepped foot in the country they are talking about. Isn't that a novel concept. |
I've been to Japan. And Singapore and Malaysia and Hong Kong. I spent two years teaching in the Philippines, more than four years teaching in Korea and more than a year teaching in Taiwan, I studied Japanese for a year, Chinese for three and am now pretty much fluent, have a Ph.D. and am now working as an Assistant Professor.
Actually, I'm starting to think that you people were right all along: there IS no point talking to people here. With the exception of PAULH who obviously knows what he is talking about, I probably know more about teaching English in Asia than all of you people on this board put together and THAT is what qualifies me to write this book, that plus the fact that we ARE going to do interviews with teachers here in Taichung, give out surveys and, as planned, go on to do a study of how their different teaching methods affect the performance of their students.
Martin |
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Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:27 am Post subject: |
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I hope that means you are saying good-bye then.
Funny, how you consider yourself an expert and you're the one asking such elementary questions. Personally, I wouldn't write about a country I have never been to before. But, since you have studied Japanese, that makes it different. I'm not sure how teaching English in Japan and studying Japanese are related.
Last edited by Gordon on Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:28 am Post subject: Tell me about teaching English in Japan |
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Glenski, I have a specific question for just you: why are you on this board? Are you really here to help answer people's ligitamate questions about teaching in Japan or are you merely here for self-agrandizing and trying to make out that you are smarter than everybody else? The big fish in the small pond, so to speak. It seems to me that you are so devoted to putting people down as the only means to raise your own own self-esteem that you've actually forgotten how to be polite to anyone. I find this to be truly sad.
As for why I think my book would be worth reading, go check my second in this thread or the exerpt I kindly provided. I really don't want to have to repeat myself for a supposed native speaker of English who is obviously so lacking in any degree of reading comprehension whatsoever.
Martin |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:31 am Post subject: Re: Tell me about teaching in Japan |
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| AsiaTraveller wrote: |
| martinphipps wrote: |
| I want to publish something mainly out my own interest in the subject. |
Glenski, he's only writing this pseudo-tome because his department asked him to -- for nonacademic reasons, no less. He doesn't know how to go about it, but he wants to keep his superiors happy. Give him enough info and links, and he'll leave us alone. Then surely "everybody wins"!!! And he and his department will have their prestiege. |
Are you sure that is what I said?
Martin |
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martinphipps
Joined: 01 Dec 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Taiwan
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 2:34 am Post subject: |
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| Gordon wrote: |
I hope that means you are saying good-bye then.
. |
You can feel free to wallow in your own mediocrity, yes.
Martin |
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AsiaTraveller
Joined: 24 May 2004
Posts: 908
Location: Singapore, Mumbai, Penang, Denpasar, Berkeley
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:07 am Post subject: Re: Tell me about teaching in Japan |
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| martinphipps wrote: |
| Are you sure that is what I said? |
Yes. My quote of you was accurate.
| martinphipps wrote: |
| You can feel free to wallow in your own mediocrity |
Now let's see. Who's mediocre here?
Somebody who posts an initial list of questions without sufficient context, on an anonymous forum, without fully disclosing upfront his background, motivation or research plans? [All these details dribble out slowly in subsequent posts.]
Somebody who has a Ph.D. but is fishing for unstructured responses from unknown (and unscreened) informants on the Internet so that his department can gain either "prestiege" or "pretiege"?
Or several individuals on this forum who have pointed out such anomalies and questionable practices? |
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Glenski
Joined: 15 Jan 2003
Posts: 12844
Location: Hokkaido, JAPAN
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| Posted: Sat Dec 11, 2004 9:34 am Post subject: |
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Martin, if you are even out there reading this, here is what I feel will be my final statements in this whole sordid affair.
You started by asking some various questions under this guise:
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| I am writing a book about teaching English in Asia, but my experience only relates to Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines. |
On page one, I explicitly told you that you were covering a huge area and that you should focus it.
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| There is more than one kind of teaching of English. Conversation school, elementary school, international school, JHS, HS, university, business English, JET Programme ALT, etc. You will have to pin down which type in order to answer your questions. |
All you could do was petulantly ask what one person (I) did, with no bearing (or acknowledgement) on asking what type of school I was in...
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| But do YOU work with a local teacher. That was my question. I don't expect people to know the situation at schools where they don't work. |
You said you never taught in Japan (fair enough), but that you had been here and had learned Japanese. Unfortunately for us, you again didn't qualify how long you had been here and in what respect. That is, were you a student for a year? Were you a tourist for 3 months? Did you study Japanese on your own or outside Japan in some institution? We don't know.
Since you
| Quote: |
| spent two years teaching in the Philippines, more than four years teaching in Korea and more than a year teaching in Taiwan, I studied Japanese for a year, Chinese for three and am now pretty much fluent, have a Ph.D. |
I wonder just what it was you were doing in Japan, especially when you have all of this linguistic / teaching background and have to ask
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| And what are the "big four" schools by the way? |
As well as [on another thread which you started]:
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| Do Japanese students mispronounce "zoo"? |
Seems pretty odd for someone with your alleged experience, and even odder since you never added a single note to the thread after your original post.
You also asked a rather simplisic question:
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| I just realised: what is the difference between an "eikaiwa" and a "juku"? |
So, I really wonder what your experience in Japan was (and when).
We finally get some glimpse as to your motives beyone the first message when you wrote (in your FOURTH message):
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| Basicly, I want to know if everything I say about Korea and Taiwan also applies to Japan. |
Then, I tell you (for the second time)
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| Your questions really don't pin people down to give you the appropriate breakdown that I have already suggested. |
but you get teed off at my directness at telling you your survey is not being conducted well. Once again, no real focus on WHO you want included in this survey/book. Just indignant snottiness.
Others began to respond with remarks similar to mine:
JimDunlop
| Quote: |
I, for one, would not mind in the least setting up an appointment with you to discuss your questions. But, IMO, there's little point in getting into much detail in this manner. The "shotgun" approach of asking a VERY general question on an Internet forum will yield questionable results at best. I apologize if I sound rude, but as an assistant professor, of all people, you should know that. Your questions, as specific as they may seem, will find dozens of different answers, each differing with individual situations.
Given the info you've provided to date, Glenski has pretty much provided the best answer as far as I can see. |
AsiaTraveller
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| If this is to be a volume that you are using to advance your professional development and possible promotion (i.e., tenure), shouldn't your research be primary and first-hand rather than second- and third-hand through anonymous posters (of varying experience and qualifications) on a Web site? |
AT even let you know there were better ways to get your desired info by suggesting:
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| There are numerous, very detailed studies on L1 interference in L2 learning, language by language. You might want to start there. |
something an ASSISTANT PROFESSOR and someone with your experience should have known (in my opinion, anyway).
Sherri asked (like me):
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| Are you mainly (only?) interested in information from people teaching children? It seems from your responses that this is your focus. |
But, you never thank her for her response to your survey. All you can do is reiterate:
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| As the exerpt clearly shows, I have spent plenty of time teaching in the Philippines, Korea and Taiwan already. I am trying to find out whether the things I have experienced in Korea and Taiwan are also true in Japan and Thailand. |
adding Thailand to the list of comparisons for the first time.
You tried to defend your methods with this:
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| If I don't do this [post survey questions on discussion forums, as opposed to going directly to the source as posed by more than one responder] and I make comments about cram schools in "Asia" without knowing about the specific conditions in Japan then I could be rightly criticized and someone could very well ask why I didn't simply go on Dave's ESL cafe and find out for myself what the situation is in Japan, let alone actually go there. |
Hmm, asking people why you can't see and can't verify in the least is better than going to the country where they live and presumably work? Where is the logic in that?
Your "savior" Paul (a good friend of mine, by the way) also casts a doubt on your techniques more than once:
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| p. Martin ,there is nothing wrong with coming on here and asking questions but the way you arewording questions is not very scientific. |
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| Your questions are so vague and general as to be answered only "it depends". Your question should ask "do you use Japanese in an elementary/junior high school/juku class? "Do you teach alone/ with a Japanese English teacher (junior high school) / a home room teacher (elementary school)?" Your questions lack specificity. Your questions take a shotgun approach and lack validity. Im not sure how reliable they will be, either. |
taikibansei adds to the questionable nature of your "research" that seems to lack the most basic foundations:
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| Especially regarding EFL in Japan, there are literally thousands of books, articles, and essays on this topic in English (more if you count materials written in other languages as well). It's apparent from his questions that he's consulted few, if any, of them...which is frankly bizarre. |
Yet, all you can say when I give you not one, but TWO types of school's information is:
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| I actually appreciate the responses that other people have given. |
(emphasis is mine)
...just because you didn't like me initially pointing out your techniques are pretty shaky. Not very professional for an Assistant Professor with all that teaching experience, PhD, and second language fluency.
You add this quaint little tidbit:
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| I am also wondering about grade inflation in Japan, although I suppose it is enough that I refer to grade inflation in Taiwan and the Philippines and its potential negative effects and leave it at that. |
(underline is mine)
And, I just love the naivete of the underlined portion. Too bad we never got to this point. You can look at it on this forum, however, if you do a search, because I started a thread on this very topic.
You continue to make baseless statements like:
| Quote: |
| people who post on forums like this ARE more likely to be able to answer these questions than random foreigners who I might pick off the streets of Japan |
If you were planning to just pick people off the streets of Japan for your survey, your survey methods are even more shaky than I had imagined! Anyone with a shred of sensibility would choose people directly from the teaching profession in an organized and coordinated way. What exactly were you thinking? Get the quick response on an Internet forum first, or was that the sum total of your planning?
bearcat makes as direct a remark as possible and puts another torpedo into the premise of your book with this:
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| Martin, I frankly think you're in over your head on this. You cannot sum up the entirety of Japan's ESL education system into one section of a book. |
You respond with:
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| Point taken, but I am mainly interested in how Japan might differ from Korea and Taiwan. Indeed my entire point could be that because there are differences between different Asian cultures and business practices that we need to be careful making broad statements about teaching in "Asia". |
Astounding! You admit that the broad statements are dangerous to make, yet you STILL refuse to pinpoint exactly which area of English education you are focusing on, and this is the middle of page 3!
Here is your nebulous remark that closely followed.
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| I have no first hand experience TEACHING in JAPAN. I do have experience teaching English in Korea and Taiwan though and I am not completely ignorant about Japanese culture. |
I noticed how you completely sidestepped describing exactly what your experience in Japan was. And, where. And, when.
On Dec.5 7:07pm (near the bottom of page 3), you add this little snippet about the reasons you started this whole thread:
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| the fact is the school wants me to publish something to raise the prestiege of the school and the department and I want to publish something mainly out my own interest in the subject (intrinsic motivation) and the fact that it might mean more money and more pretiege for me doesn't hurt either. |
Later, you criticize AsiaTraveller who wrote:
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| he's only writing this pseudo-tome because his department asked him to -- for nonacademic reasons, no less. He doesn't know how to go about it, but he wants to keep his superiors happy. Give him enough info and links, and he'll leave us alone. |
You wrote in response:
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| Are you sure that is what I said? |
Does it take an Assistant Professor to cut and paste the obvious?
Once again, Paul points out what I had done since the very first page:
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| You are asking about education from preschool to university, public and private schools and jukus. preschool and team teaching, the public JET program, for example is a whole topic by itself. You could write a whole article on just one of these areas or one or two of your questions. Personally I think you will need to refine your topic and area of research. |
To which you don't respond.
You get 2 dozen book titles from me to point out the obvious references you could've read (but hadn't), and to restate a question from the beginning, but you fail to respond, presumably because you are still pouting over one measly remark (which is growing from the rest of the population here).
As added fodder and incentive, Nismo ask you point blank:
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| "What makes yours any better than the plentiful selection already printed?" |
No response.
You tell us your qualifications at last (page 5), then tear into the entire forum group:
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| With the exception of PAULH who obviously knows what he is talking about, I probably know more about teaching English in Asia than all of you people on this board put together and THAT is what qualifies me to write this book |
Nice touch. You have just alienated the whole population that you were seeking to survey. If you know more than us, why didn't you know about ERIC, simple Japanese phonics, and easy things about the Japanese educational system (as I have already pointed out)? And, why are you employed by some Chinese university that doesn't even have English journals?
I think this summary makes things pretty clear. You have successfully wasted a lot of people's time and energy, thanked practically no one, and are indeed out for something that you call "prestige" (no matter that you spelled it incorrectly). Will this book get published? Probably and sadly. Will it make you any money? Probably not. Will it add to the prestige of the school where you work? I doubt it. Will it add to your prestige? Only if you plug it on your resume, but I'd love to see the dedication inside the cover! |
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