|
Job Discussion Forums
"The Internet's Meeting Place for ESL/EFL Students and Teachers from Around the World!"
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
 Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 7:33 am Post subject: Japanese high school kids getting dumber |
 |
|
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
OECD test sees Japanese kids slip
Full article at:
http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/getarticle.pl5?nn20041208a2.htm
� Japanese high school students have slipped in the latest
international ranking of reading and mathematics skills by the
Organization of Economic Cooperation and Development.
� In the first international student assessment of 15-year-olds
conducted by the OECD in 2000, Japanese students came first in
mathematics and eighth in reading. In 2003, they tumbled to sixth
place for math and 14th for reading...
� "In brief, they don't study hard these days, do they?" asked Nariaki
Nakayama, minister for education, culture, sports, science and
technology, in responding to the survey results. "We must clearly
recognize that (their skills) are on a declining trend. . . . We must
tell them to study harder."
� But an official at the education ministry said the ministry believes
Japan still belongs in the top group of countries, because no marked
differences exist statistically, except in reading scores....
� The ministry hopes to learn what caused the decline in reading
skills.� The official said it will establish programs to fix the
problem.� The official said the fall might have be linked to
television viewing and increased computer use...
The Japan Times: Dec. 8, 2004 |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:03 am Post subject: |
|
|
Standardized testing is so outdated.
"In brief, they don't study hard these days, do they?" asked Nariaki
Nakayama, minister for education, culture, sports, science and
technology, in responding to the survey results. "We must clearly
recognize that (their skills) are on a declining trend. . . . We must
tell them to study harder."
Or, maybe the teachers need to find new/better methods to inspire kids, or teach from a different angle. Cramming is the weakest, most useless method for acquiring knowledge. Even in 2000, when Japan was on top, all that shows is that the students were excellent at being robots. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
No, they don't study that hard.
Yes, teachers need to find new ways to inspire kids.
In the kids defense (I shall not do this again), they have no reason to study. It's almost impossible to fail a class, they are assured of graduating high school. universities are begging for students of even the lowest ability, and most don't have any idea what they might like to do in the future anyway.
The system isn't getting any better. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 8:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Oh, and standardized testing isn't going away anytime soon. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Nismo
Joined: 27 Jul 2004
Posts: 520
|
| Posted: Fri Dec 17, 2004 5:55 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| Oh, and standardized testing isn't going away anytime soon. |
Sad but true. 
They should at least attempt to make it cover a broader range of topics. I have a friend who failed Algebra 3 times in High school. The same friend also painted a masterpiece when he was 3 years old, and it is still hanging in his mother's house and guests are in awe when they are informed of who painted it and when (just so you don't think it is some abstract child doodling, the painting is of two girls building a sand castle on the beach, done in acrylics). Artistic endeavor is the result of intelligence, but its application to what would be considered a "useful profession" is limited and therefore overlooked on standardized tests. The same applies to music. Those are just beginnings of standardized testing flaws. A whole book could be written based solely on the flawed characteristics. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
guest of Japan
Joined: 28 Feb 2003
Posts: 1601
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 12:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
Nismo, standardized tests are meant to be an objective evaluation of learned skills and knowledge and be comparable to others. Your friend may indeed be an artistic genius, but art and music are very subjective endeavors. If your friend could paint a masterpiece at three then the school he went to probably had very little to do with his artistic development, though the school had a lot to do with him being unable to pass Algebra 3. Artists are measured on different scales then others. A school like Parsons in NYC doesn't care a lick about your friends Algebra 3 ability but will be very interested in his painting ability. Conversely, MIT will be very concerned about his Algebra 3 skills.
The key for standardized testing is in who chooses the standards. During the last decade there has been a big push for standards in the US. As I was training to be a teacher, I was quite against this movement until I had the opportunity to see what they were putting together in NY. In NY the standards were being created through collaboration with beaurocrats, business, university professors, parents, teachers, and school administrators. Teachers and professors were given the most control. I found the standards created for the social sciences to be an amazing achievement.
A big positive of standardized testing is that it identifies inequities in education. This enables inequities to be dealt with.
We seem to have tangented from the OP, and I hope we can get back on track. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:10 am Post subject: |
|
|
definitely at my school I can see that the academic abilities of the students has been declining. I think it`s because there are fewer Japanese
teenagers than before, and where I work I think all (or almost all) applicants are accepted, provided that the parents can pay the steep tuition fees, which are over a million yen a year (maybe 1.2 million).
If my school was more selective, there would be fewer students, and I think the salaries of teachers would be cut.
In the future, the teachers that retire will not be replaced. And instead of ten homerooms per grade, it will be only six not too far in the future.
So private high schools are having a hard time competing with each other for students.
I think in the future some high schools and universities could close because there are fewer students every year. Crunch time will come in the next 2-3 years. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Gordon
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 5309
Location: Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brooks wrote: |
I think in the future some high schools and universities could close because there are fewer students every year. Crunch time will come in the next 2-3 years. |
I've heard that the number of universities could drop in half in the next 20 years. While I think the number is a little high, I do believe the number of studnets will be half unless something is changed dramatically in Japan's immigration policy (not holding my breath). Perhaps universities will close down programs as the number of students drop and then they will force to close if the drop is too drastic. I have noticed that my university is more pro-active when it comes to recruiting HS students and even jnr high students. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
I read that in 2007 there will be enough places for all university applicants.
I think Japanese universities may recruit foreign students more. But some Chinese students overstay their visas, work illegally, etc. So I think it will be harder for foreign students to get visas. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Gordon wrote: |
| I've heard that the number of universities could drop in half in the next 20 years. While I think the number is a little high, I do believe the number of studnets will be half unless something is changed dramatically in Japan's immigration policy (not holding my breath). Perhaps universities will close down programs as the number of students drop and then they will force to close if the drop is too drastic. I have noticed that my university is more pro-active when it comes to recruiting HS students and even jnr high students. |
Combined with the fact that the numbers of students dropping and schools looking to save money on salaries any way they can, the hiring of teachers through dispatch companies and larger classes overall with less teachers, things dont look to good. The ratio of places to students is roughly 1:1 now, so that virtually any student who sits an entrance exam is assured of a place. In many places the schools can not get enough students, especially in rural areas and in some cases are being filled with foreign 'students' from China.
Biggest problem I hear of, though Im not sure I have mentioned before is the remedial reading level of students in their own language, Japanese, where students can not read and write properly in Japanese, and they need remedial classes when they reach university. The ubiquity of cell--phones in class too, means that students have short attention spans, they are surgically attached to their short text messages and mail icons. I have trouble getting students to write complete English sentences and will copy abbreviated sentences verbatim from the board.
I just finished writing a test which will be given to 650 first years on Monday and the other teacher said i should be careful how I space the choices on the question sheet as students may think the distractor choice for "A" is meant as the answer for "B": as though students cant work out the order of choices for a multi-choice question. I find it surprising that university students have to be spoon-fed down to the last detail on how to take an English test. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 1:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brooks wrote: |
I read that in 2007 there will be enough places for all university applicants.
I think Japanese universities may recruit foreign students more. But some Chinese students overstay their visas, work illegally, etc. So I think it will be harder for foreign students to get visas. |
Brooks
it is getting very hard now for Chinese students to get student visas here in part due to the numbers who dont turn up to class (I have a few enrolled in my classes whom I have never seen) and the killing of a Japanese family in Fukuoka by some Chinese students who disappeared and fled back to China.
Something like 60 or 70% of Chinese students have had their visa applications rejected by immigration while numbers are still high for other nationalities applying for Japanese universities. Would have to find some reliable source for those figures though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
we have students that should be at a semmon gakko but come to my school since the parents can afford it. It`s a pride thing.
Students need at least a 2.9 to get into the university at my school.
It is a standard, but a low one.
One of my students said she wanted to major in Japanese at university. But I heard she got a 35 on her final exam. She should repeat the year but I bet she`ll be allowed to graduate. Who knows what she`ll do next year.
I read the book by Wadden about teaching at universities in Japan. It is spot on. Universities seem to be more about making money than about students learning.
How is McVeigh`s book about the Myth of Higher Education?
Last edited by Brooks on Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Nismo wrote: |
| guest of Japan wrote: |
| Oh, and standardized testing isn't going away anytime soon. |
Sad but true.
They should at least attempt to make it cover a broader range of topics. I have a friend who failed Algebra 3 times in High school. The same friend also painted a masterpiece when he was 3 years old, and it is still hanging in his mother's house and guests are in awe when they are informed of who painted it and when (just so you don't think it is some abstract child doodling, the painting is of two girls building a sand castle on the beach, done in acrylics). Artistic endeavor is the result of intelligence, but its application to what would be considered a "useful profession" is limited and therefore overlooked on standardized tests. The same applies to music. Those are just beginnings of standardized testing flaws. A whole book could be written based solely on the flawed characteristics. |
Nismo
Here is an article I found which is rather academic in nature but seems to explain things fairly concisely. Sorry if it uses high register language but some things can not always be explained in simple laymans language. Most university teachers should be able to follow this line of thinking.
http://www.asian-efl-journal.com/march03.sub5a.htm
I would also make a distinction between Norm referenced tests (NRT) like the TOEIC, TOEFL, the central exam, which test students against each other and scores are spread out over a bell curve, and Criterion reference Testing (CRT) which tests how much a student understands after a period of instruction
Our school uses standardised tests such as TOEIC etc to put classes in streams according to proficiency levels based on test scores, but i will use CRT in my classes to see whether students understand what i have taught them. If the scores are too low it means my classes are too difficult and I have to revise my teaching. TOEIC etc just compares students in relation to other people in the class. Standardised tests have their place so we can see where students are in terms of their peers. As the other poster pointed out these tests are road tested and fairly reliable, otherwise you get people making tests that contain errors, maybe have a certain bias based on geography discipline etc.
A person studying Music or drama will be judged differently than someone doing physics or Chemistry. Different tests for testing different things. Not everyone will be good at studying English but you can see their relative abilities in relation to other people.
You have to be careful about what kind of testing you are talking about. In the US to my knowledge you dont have nationalised standard testing, but testing of students is left up to individual states, and tests like the SAT will sort people out when they try to enter university. thats my understanding anyway as you have no national academic standard of knowledge that must be learnt by each student in the US, whereas in Japan learning is fairly uniform across the country.
I would also not really characterise students here as "robots", they do know how to think but the education system emphasises drills and rote memorisation. they are taught not to talk back or question the teacher, and knowledge is transmitted one way. In the US you would get academically gifted students, very bright people, some who lack social skills, are somewhat rebels and are anto-social (a bit of a generalisation, but i would call them loose cannons compared to japanese students). Students are conditioned in the way they are educated and brought up, and saying students here are robots is imposing an American-western social value on another society. I know many students may appear robots, but they dont know any other way, unless we teach them, which is what we try to do at university by getting them to experiment and avoid the fear of failure. All they have been told is they have to study and pass exams to get into the university or company of their choice. Failure or anti-conformity is not an option for most in Japan, whereas it may be for someone in the US. Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard in his 3rd year. Do you think a gifted IT in Japan could do the same and still become a billionaire, though educated in Japan? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
PAULH
Joined: 28 Jan 2003
Posts: 4672
Location: Western Japan
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:39 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Brooks wrote: |
I read the book by Wadden about teaching at universities in Japan. It is spot on. Universities seem more about making money than about students learning.
How is McVeigh`s book about the Myth of Higher Education? |
I have both books though the McVeigh one is more recent. Wadden has been around since the mid 1990's and I think McVeigh's book was published in 2002.
the Wadden book is more of a how-to book for people wanting to teach and get jobs in universities, how to develop a teaching career, deal with office politics etc. McVeigh tends to take a darker and more pessimistic view of japanese education and is more of an academic treatise. When I read that I was depressed for a week.
A good read but pretty heavy reading. Though I agree with what he says in principle he is pretty pessimistic in tone though. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Brooks
Joined: 16 Jan 2003
Posts: 1369
Location: Sagamihara
|
| Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2004 2:44 am Post subject: |
|
|
some schools like Aoyama, Waseda, and Sophia have exams in the fall.
The tests are essays and oral interviews. The interview can be in English or in Japanese, and some returnees do well. I think the tests are given so the universities can be assured of getting smarter students. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
This page is maintained by the one and only Dave Sperling.
Contact Dave's ESL Cafe
Copyright © 2018 Dave Sperling. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
