Job Discussion Forums

[Nauczyciel]

I originally posted it on general forum, but it seems China forum is the right place.

What's the difference between Oral English and Conversational English? Many Chinese schools in their adverts treat the two like different subjects. Is the difference important from the teacher's point of view?

[Ger]

Perhaps oral English involves helping students to make grammatically correct sentences, think in English in their heads, the teacher spoon feeds the learners, coaches them to speak sentences.

Conversational English may require the student to have pronunciation knowledge, as well as structural (grammar) knowledge, and cultural knowledge of English and English speakers. Conversational English teachers teach students to communicate and respond accurately and fluently as well as culturally appropriately to a native speaker of English. The student has to think on his/her feet, in terms of finding solutions to problems.

I'm guessing here!

[Roger]

I told you in that other thread that there is NO dividing line between these areas, that in fact Mandarin "kouyu" is variously translated as "spoken English" or "oral English" or even "conversation English". The latter sounds too pompous though, and I haven't seen any school that advertises this though you will informally hear it applied to their spoken English classes.

And, Ger is totally wrong as far as "accurate English" (grammatically correct usages!( is concerned: this will NEVER be your taks here unless you elect to do it (as I often do).
Let me add that I think the whole concept of speaking practice in China is a waste of time and resources! I think so because your students invariably have too poor English skills; most rely on word-by-word translation, and get easily stumped when they hit upon a word in a new context or in a form they haven't "studied" with their teacher.
It also is manifestly wrong as the Chinese teachers have no clue as to who of their students can cope with native English speakers; yet they expect you to give them "a chance to practise their speaking".
You may sometimes come across classes with extremely entertaining and informative textbooks, often with an accompanying CD or tape, but they will not be able to read between the lines, and if you are unlucky your school will scrimp on the expenditure of a video player or a tape recorder even though their students buy 20 kuai materials including a CD!
"Conversations" occur spontaneously, and the most interesting ones never happen in classrooms or English Corners!

[writpetition]

Roger, I beg to differ.
Remember, with the regimented style of teaching that most students have grown up with, they are mostly too shy and perhaps, abashed to try and speak in the presence of a foreigner or even classmates. What with 'losing face' being such a big thing - it's extremely difficult to get the students out of their shells. This is where Oral English classes help. With a little guidance, goading and gentleness from a foreign teacher, they at least try and make the effort to speak some English. And, how else can one learn to speak English other than by speaking the language? Let them make all the mistakes - as long as they keep trying, they'll keep learning. With each attempt they gain an iota of confidence which encourages them to try again and then the cycle begins. That's the cycle that I, as a teacher, often aimed at and managed, though admittedly, not in all cases.

The gains translate slowly into conversation situations, but believe me, they do!

[Roger]

Well, writpetition, you have made the point my Chinese colleagues keep making - a questionable one. Did you learn these truisms from a TESOL course?
My students are not shy, believe me! They do, however, lack self-confidence - which is not the same thing at all. Why is that? You are right - regimented teaching.
But they do not gain self-confidence during such oral exercises, at least, they don't gain it permanently. They may loosen up in the presence of you owing to the fact they have become used to you, but to you ONLY. Will they be competent in using English in social intercourse with others? No, no and again no!

Besides, it should be their own teachers' obligation to use English in meaningful contexts in the classroom, for instance in giving instructions, paraphrasing English sentences, explaining underlying meanings of texts, interpreting differences etc. Unfortunately, their own teachers give them a very bad example of CHinese not speaking the lingo. Therefore, it becomes a language of last resort that no one respects.

I am a little tired of listening to exhortations that we need to tolerate mistakes, even mistakes repeatedly made. No, we don't need to do that. We need to teach them correct usages of English, and we need to get them to speaking English without tanslating - if we can manage that, though that's hardly possible at the stage when we are put in front of them.

May I also remind you that CHinese don't necessarily study English in order to speak it? The prime motivation for the CHinese to acquire a good foundation in English is to be able to learn from the more advanced countries in the world. Anything else is personal interpretation; China cannot afford to educate their own young generation in a language they will use as emigrants; they want them to serve their own nation.

[kev7161]

The biggest problem (in my situation at least) is that the ONLY time these kids really speak English is in my class - - twice a week for 45 minutes. How I would love to take these kids outside the prison, I mean SCHOOL walls and bring them into a "real world" situation so they can try to use the English they are learning. Perhaps a western-style restaurant or to a travel agency where they have to place an order (or talk about a trip) in English only. That may seem "pie-in-the-sky" when it comes to being in China, but I hope you know what I mean. Their other English class is, of course, taught by their Chinese teacher and they mostly sit and listen and do workbook exercises. We do things like that as well, but I try to do much more beyond so we can all speak and have fun. It's not always easy - - especially in the limited time I have with them.

But still, I often bump into strangers on the street who talk to me or help me in English, so it's rubbing off on some of them.

[monju]

I've recently started a new job at a college in Yunnan. After my first two periods of an ORAL English class, where I had tried to get the students to at least use some of the target language from the (awful) texbook, one of my students told me that in these classes the teacher should do the talking and the students can practice in their spare time. Go figure that one!

I was almost lost for words. All I could do is confirm that it was an oral English class.

I thought oral and conversational English were the same thing! Perhaps I'm mistaken.

[Nauczyciel]

Monju, thanks. Finally somebody bothered to notice what this thread is all about. I just checked one of the sites advertising jobs in China, quite a lot of them containing "Courses to teach" list. Guess what - most of them say:

[Roger]

There is no need to feel sorry; I guess that advert simply used both terms without bothering to think whether they had different meanings.

I repeat: these terms normally (I repeat: normally...) are used interchangeably. The general concept behind it is that whether a foreigner talks or discusses, holds a conversation or drills sentences - all amount to "SPEAKING", and that can be rendered as "oral" or "conversation" English.
Typically, only foreigners are assigned such dumb jobs, with the supposedly more demanding subjectsrammar, essay writing, history, intensive reading and extensive reading being taught by Chinese English teachers, some of whom have very poor English communications skills. I even met a CHinese English Literature teacher who spoke not a word of English, believe it or not! The Chinese don't give their own students practical experience in acquiring English; it's all a very bookish attempt at piling as many vocables as possible into their memories, and the foreign teacher therefore must try to revive this dead matter. I think this divsdion of labour ridiculous.
I am not surprised that students tell you they can do their oral practising on their own, and you should tech them more of the same as their Chinese teacher; this shows how little the Chinese school authorities understand what teaching English is all about.
You might even have so-called "advanced learners" who want to "pass the IELTS or TOEFL" - and you can't even discuss with them today's weather!

Conversations sometimes do take place - in informal settings such as public English salons. But your average English major can't read the CHINA DAILY without resorting to an occasional Chinese translation of the same text. How can you do "conversation" with such students?

[Dan__]

Most of the classes I teach are called spoken English or speaking class.

Is this yet a 3rd category, or would this be the same as either oral English or conversational English

[tofuman]

I see a definite distinction between oral and conversational English.

A student may memorize a brief speech and recite it for a teacher. That is considered "oral" English. If the teacher can ask the student a question about the recitation and the student appropriately responds, that is "conversation." Most students are unable to do the latter.

[baijioubloke]

My tuppence....

I've just done my 1st round of speaking exams so it's something of interest.

Rog, I don't doubt there's 1 chinese word but I think the chinese do regard getting your mouth round the sounds in a connected sort of way (Oral production) AND managing discourse in an unplanned spontaneous conversation (2way communication of ideas in L2) as different skills.

We see it as a continuum although not a uniformly smooth one. we also see speaking & listening as inseperable and the first skills needed in language aquisition........

Here, oratory ability is a quality of leaders & something to be emulated. Christ! that retard "Wrong Way" on Dialogue tried to get a foreigner to endorse Hitler as 'one of the greats' ..........

Simply put...... speaking to or speaking with? purpose or pleasure? I believe Chinese do see English as having these mutually exclusive roles in their (bright,successful, wealthy) futures and train for it accordingly.

When I asked my students to be ready to have a conversation with me about something they liked - ouch! the drivel that some of them came out with!!!

2minute monologues on 'power & wealth', 'the importance of reading extensively & selectively', 'what is success', 'challenges', 'my mother' etc.... only 2 stood out as adressing the task: one guy babbled on about music (& I took him to task somewhat on his definition of blues....) & one girl talked about TV (CCTV of course...)

1 girl chose to ignore a question I put to her. She just ploughed on! she wasn't going to ruin her beautifully rehearsed appeasement speech by addressing my objection that SARS happened in 2003 not 2004...

Basically my uni students dragged up their best submission from a speaking contest or previous 'topic based' examination - great oral skills, lots of timewasting e.g. leading off with a quotation or that infuriating "Do you know what X is? Let me tell you..... ".

what they seem to fear most is 'free talk' (I tell my lot that as I get paid - It's not free, it's spontaneous) where they have to organise grammar vocab on the fly and listen to, and respond to input from the others.

Advanced skills to be sure and ones best practiced (not learnt) in a specific environment and with a TBL methodology (perhaps). Maybe that's why employers distinguish between the 2. They plan to give you small groups of sufficient maturity & equivalent level with plenty of realia at your disposal- yeah right!!