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EphemeralReal
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 35
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 1:44 pm Post subject: A question may I ask? |
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My boss he say February is my last day since the students at high school say they don't like me. It is this school bad too so I have 45 students to teach but how? They stink at speak English.
My question is do many schools say this to you guys that students don't like us? To fire us? I don't care since the job was over 40 classes a week. I didn't sign up for a high school, that is different from my school and I'm not sure legal anyways. Where can I find a good job now?
My English is no problem cause I don't need to speak a lot. I'm looking for business men trade th is year. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: A question may I ask? |
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| EphemeralReal wrote: |
My boss he say February is my last day since the students at high school say they don't like me. It is this school bad too so I have 45 students to teach but how? They stink at speak English.
My question is do many schools say this to you guys that students don't like us? To fire us? I don't care since the job was over 40 classes a week. I didn't sign up for a high school, that is different from my school and I'm not sure legal anyways. Where can I find a good job now?
My English is no problem cause I don't need to speak a lot. I'm looking for business men trade th is year. |
I'm very sorry, but your English-- the fact that you are not even close to a native speaker of the language-- is more than likely the real reason you were fired. It's unlikely you will be told the real reason for what happened. My guess is the school wants a native speaker of English and is willing to shell out the big bucks to get one. Your boss got the contract and sent you-- claiming you were an American-- and collected said big bucks while paying you a very small portion thereof. The school has likely now figured out it had been taken for a ride by your boss and cancelled his contract. Now your boss is saying the students do not like you and that is why you are out of a job. This is not an insult; it is reality: I have students here who write better than you do. I can only imagine what your English sounds like. You are in THE WRONG LINE OF WORK. You are not qualified to be teaching English. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 3:14 pm Post subject: |
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Well said Steve.
Ephemeral Real. I don't believe that anyone on this board has a problem with you personally. I am sure that you and your girlfriend and very nice people. By your own account neither of you are native English speakers, and from your posts it has become evident that your English ability is good, but not good enough to be teaching the language.
Sure you could assume that we are trying to be elitist and protect the English teaching industry for ourselves - but that would be wrong! Quite simply, you are being paid as a foreign English teacher as it is hoped that the students will benefit from fluency that they cannot get from local Chinese teachers. Your level does appear to quite similar to that of some local teachers who I am sure are getting paid less than you. I am not surprised that the school wants to get rid of you. Why pay for a foreign teacher if what you are getting is equal to the local teachers who already work there?
More seriously though is the fact that you are most certainly making mistakes in the classroom that the students may be learning from you. This is irresponsible of you. You have no place teaching English here in Taiwan.
I am quite sure that you or your agent haven't been entirely honest with the school in as much as the fact that you are a second language speaker yourself. If this is correct then you have no right to complain about the treatment by the school, when you or your agent have been dishonest with them in the firstplace.
I say come clean and tell your next employer that you are not a native speaker, or find some other line of work here. |
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EphemeralReal
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 9:58 am Post subject: |
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But you know I let my girlfriend use this mode of speech to confound the argumentative stupidity of those who can't offer sound reasoning to abort the meaninglessness of some contracts and employer's demands. You are a bright bunch, beyond this veil of hypnotizing hypocrisy called an internet, where all is skin deep.
Yes, and what is there about lying to one in regards to contracts signed? Or what is their to hiring one for private schools via buxi-bans? And what is it to this workload where the employer takes advantage by excusing workers if he doesn't get his full share of extra cash by using his workers? The students didn't like my girlfriend? Yes, indeed they didn't. They, in turn, couldn't speak English at all. At least she tries.
She's not in the wrong line of work. THIS IS THE WRONG LINE OF TEACHING ESL, if you could read between the lines she wrote.
That's all she inquired of here, not your retorts about teaching English. The boss well knew this. The school's level was so low he didn't care.
It appears the Taiwanese don't either. But you guys are brighter than most. You have an advantage of the kids not knowing how well you speak English either , but you figure it's a real prerequisite to a bonafied job here. I'd bet your employer how much it means. |
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EphemeralReal
Joined: 05 Dec 2004
Posts: 35
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:12 am Post subject: |
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Oh no! My boyfriend is mad now. I'm very sorry at him. He went jogging now, maybe to mountain.
I think my English is no good. I know. So I say my boss, he not answer me but workers say he has to close the kindergarten. We don't care though. He stinks bad. |
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TaoyuanSteve
Joined: 05 Feb 2003
Posts: 1028
Location: Taoyuan
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| EphemeralReal wrote: |
But you know I let my girlfriend use this mode of speech to confound the argumentative stupidity of those who can't offer sound reasoning to abort the meaninglessness of some contracts and employer's demands. You are a bright bunch, beyond this veil of hypnotizing hypocrisy called an internet, where all is skin deep.
Yes, and what is there about lying to one in regards to contracts signed? Or what is their to hiring one for private schools via buxi-bans? And what is it to this workload where the employer takes advantage by excusing workers if he doesn't get his full share of extra cash by using his workers? The students didn't like my girlfriend? Yes, indeed they didn't. They, in turn, couldn't speak English at all. At least she tries.
She's not in the wrong line of work. THIS IS THE WRONG LINE OF TEACHING ESL, if you could read between the lines she wrote.
That's all she inquired of here, not your retorts about teaching English. The boss well knew this. The school's level was so low he didn't care.
It appears the Taiwanese don't either. But you guys are brighter than most. You have an advantage of the kids not knowing how well you speak English either , but you figure it's a real prerequisite to a bonafied job here. I'd bet your employer how much it means. |
Ok, you can keep up the Jekyll and Hyde act only for so long. I suggest you and your gf get separate accounts so we know who we are talking to. I'm tired of this multiple personality BS. I'm sure your gf is a big girl and can handle a discussion without her beau intervening. BTW, this is the twenty-first century. You don't "let" your girlfriend do anything. She is an autonomous being and doesn't need your permission to do anything, nor your protection on harmless internet chat forums.
Your gf comes here and posts a query about being let go from a job teaching English. It's very easy to see that neither of you speak English as your first language. The job REQUIRES you to be a native speaker of the language in the first place. You are not. That is why you are having trouble. It's not my fault, nor is it Clark's, nor is it anyone else's. Your employer is LYING about who you are, where you come from and your language ability. You may not be lying about who you are, but somebody definitely is.
Don't underestimate the intelligence of the high school students you have been teaching, either. They may appear to have no ability in the language, but I know from experience here that you are incorrect in that assumption. By the time students here reach high school, they have already studied English for quite some time. I have taught this age group a lot here. I have a good feel for their abilities. It suffices to say they know what North American English spoken by a native speaker sounds like; and they know you don't speak it. You were most likely found out by them. They are much more capable than you think.
Your final point about students not knowing how well you actually speak the language completely side-steps the issue of the morality of misrepresenting yourself. Then there is also the educational ethics issue of knowingly teaching foreign accented and incorrect English to students who have been misled into believing you are fluent. Do you really think parents here want their kids to learn English the way you speak it? Is it right for you to pass yourself off as something you are not? Is it right for you to take money from your students' parents just because they may lack the ability to tell one nationality of white person from another? What you are participating in amounts to fraud. You are a fraud. Your boss is an even bigger fraud. As long as you insist on masquerading as a native speaking English teacher in Taiwan, you are going to encounter more problems such as the one you just experienced. Think about it. Anyone who accepts you for a job here is a fraud. You know in advance what you can expect in terms of treatment. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 11:58 am Post subject: |
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I don't think that anyone here is stating the your English is bad. You should both be proud that you can communicate effectively in the language. I can't speak any European languages, and I respect you guys for the fact that you can speak your mother tongue and communicate adequately well in English. This is not the problem.
The problem is that you are teaching English, when neither of you seem to have a solid enough foundation in the language to really be putting yourselves in a position to be teaching it to others. Your girlfriend accepts that her English is not perfect, yet she continues to attempt to teach the language. Doesn't that strike you as being a tad unreasonable?
It has become pretty clear to me over the years that those individuals who choose to work here illegally are the ones who always seem to get into the greatest trouble.
You both must have known before you got here, or quite possibly soon after you got here, that neither of you qualified for legal employment as native English speaking teachers. Despite this, you both chose to stay and work illegally, and you stated in one of your original posts that you were aware that you were working illegally. Now that you have run into trouble, you expect legal teachers or perhaps the authorities in Taiwan to stand up and defend you.
Choose to dance with the devil and you will get burned!
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| and what is there about lying to one in regards to contracts signed? |
How exactly were you lied to?
There are two possibilities as to how you both landed work here in Taiwan:
Option A - You either lied to or misled your employer into believing that you were both native English speakers.
Option B - You were totally upfront about this fact, yet your employer chose to employ you both either way, knowing full well that they were employing you illegally.
Either way, it seems that you took the first step towards illegality, so I don't see how you can turn around now and say how unfair Taiwan is.
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| Or what is their to hiring one for private schools via buxi-bans? |
Are you a legal teacher here in Taiwan? Do you have an ARC to teach? Do you even qualify to have an ARC to teach English here? It seems pretty obvious that your answer to all these questions is 'No'.
If so, then why do you seem to feel that the law that applies to legal teachers should apply to you?
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| And what is it to this workload where the employer takes advantage by excusing workers if he doesn't get his full share of extra cash by using his workers? |
You were knowingly working illegally for an employer that was employing you illegally. If they hadn't supplied you with an ARC then they were employing you illegally, and as you don't appear to qualify for an ARC anyway it seems certain that had you stayed in their employ you would have remained illegal.
Why are you so surprised that an employer willing to employ you illegally, was equally as willing to give you a raw deal? I am sure that most would expect this to be the case. It seems pretty logical to me.
In choosing to work illegally, you are choosing to work for the types of employers that are willing to hire illegally. How can it be such a surprise to you that these same people who have such a disrespect for the law, would have a disrespect for your rights?
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| The students didn't like my girlfriend? Yes, indeed they didn't. They, in turn, couldn't speak English at all. At least she tries. |
"At least she tries"!! She's the goddamn English teacher. She is not meant to be trying to communicate in the language, she is meant to be teaching it!
You seem like a very arrogant individual to suggest that just because her English ability as a second language speaker is better than the somewhat younger students, that she somehow has a god given right to teach the language!
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| She's not in the wrong line of work. THIS IS THE WRONG LINE OF TEACHING ESL, if you could read between the lines she wrote. |
You are both most definitely in the wrong line of work, and the longer you stay here trying to defend your right to teach a language that you cannot even use correctly, the more troubled you will become.
| EphemeralReal wrote: |
| It appears the Taiwanese don't either. |
Oh yes! And you have of course met all of the Taiwanese on the island in qualification of this grose generalization.
This is my biggest problem with people such as yourself. You are the sort of person that comes to teach in Taiwan when you had no right doing so in the first place. You accept an illegal job and continue to work illegally. Then when you run into trouble you become particularly vocal about how bad Taiwan is and how bad the Taiwanese people are.
Take a step back for a moment and accept the fact that you are an illegal immigrant, working an illegal job. Think back to your own country, and the feelings that you have about these types of people in your country. Now, realize that you are one of them! |
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junkmail
Joined: 19 Dec 2004
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 9:06 am Post subject: |
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You seem like a very arrogant individual to suggest that just because her English ability as a second language speaker is better than the somewhat younger students, that she somehow has a god given right to teach the language!
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True, but most native English speakers think that too. Actually, in Asia they get away with it. There are good examples of skilled, qualified and experienced non natives working in the industry in other countries, but they have very high end skills.
In Asia, it comes down to image. Don't believe me then ask any Chinese or Korean American.
Being a 'qualified' teacher in most of Asia is a laughable sham. But it's a sham that keeps us white native speakers laughing all the way to the bank. |
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clark.w.griswald
Joined: 06 Dec 2004
Posts: 2056
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| Posted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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| junkmail wrote: |
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You seem like a very arrogant individual to suggest that just because her English ability as a second language speaker is better than the somewhat younger students, that she somehow has a god given right to teach the language!
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True, but most native English speakers think that too. Actually, in Asia they get away with it. |
This is true. Just because someone is a native speaker of English doesn't automatically make them a good teacher of the language. It is certainly possible that a non-native speaker with an excellent grasp of the language could teach grammar etc. quite well. The problem is that most of the need for native speakers here stems around conversational style English, which can lead to problems if the teacher isn't all that conversant.
I certainly wouldn't attempt to suggest that all non-native English speakers are not welcome here, but I personally find little justification in them teaching English here unless they have the ability of native speakers. Basically, if they post here and make no more errors than a native speaker or just a plain bad typist then fine, but when they make distinct and repeated grammatical errors, you have to wonder whether they should really be teaching the language.
| junkmail wrote: |
| There are good examples of skilled, qualified and experienced non natives working in the industry in other countries, but they have very high end skills. |
If a non-native speaker were teaching a subject other than English through the medium of English and was somewhat lacking in ability but understandable then I wouldn't have a problem with this. Afterall it is the teachers knowledge that is important in that case, and so long as the students can understand the teacher then that is fine.
When these teachers step over and start actually teaching errors in English then THAT becomes a problem! |
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ziggy stardust
Joined: 18 Jun 2004
Posts: 20
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| Posted: Mon Jan 24, 2005 4:55 pm Post subject: |
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| EphemeralReal wrote: |
But you know I let my girlfriend use this mode of speech to confound the argumentative stupidity of those who can't offer sound reasoning to abort the meaninglessness of some contracts and employer's demands. You are a bright bunch, beyond this veil of hypnotizing hypocrisy called an internet, where all is skin deep.
Yes, and what is there about lying to one in regards to contracts signed? Or what is their to hiring one for private schools via buxi-bans? And what is it to this workload where the employer takes advantage by excusing workers if he doesn't get his full share of extra cash by using his workers? The students didn't like my girlfriend? Yes, indeed they didn't. They, in turn, couldn't speak English at all. At least she tries.
She's not in the wrong line of work. THIS IS THE WRONG LINE OF TEACHING ESL, if you could read between the lines she wrote.
sounds like a very sad case of thesaurus abuse to me.
That's all she inquired of here, not your retorts about teaching English. The boss well knew this. The school's level was so low he didn't care.
It appears the Taiwanese don't either. But you guys are brighter than most. You have an advantage of the kids not knowing how well you speak English either , but you figure it's a real prerequisite to a bonafied job here. I'd bet your employer how much it means. |
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Wonder
Joined: 29 Jun 2003
Posts: 109
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| Posted: Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:38 am Post subject: |
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I suggest the most compelling reason why native English speakers are hired to teach ESL is because, even if we do make the occasional mistake, it's rarely serious enough to warrant a reprimand or embarrasment for the school.
And most of us learn from our mistakes, and that leads to more careful and clear lesson plans. The other thing, of course, is that because we are native speakers, we have an almost infinite knowledge of our language, some of it is untapped or unrealised until we actually begin teaching.
Then there is the fact that our accents and practical conversation is something that most Asians strive for. So simply listening to us teach, day in and day out, does have some benefits for the students.
All of the above simply cannot be achieved by anyone other than a native speaker of whatever langauge...in this case, English.
EphemeralReal: If I were in your position, considering your relatively high level of English, I would start looking for jobs where you could translate or work where your bilingual ability will be appreciated. You have nothing to be ashamed of. English is a difficult language and you should be proud of your ESL skills.
But you are simply not qualified to teach ESL in this country. Perhaps after you realise this, you'll lose the attitude and enjoy life! |
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