Job Discussion Forums

[tofuman]

"The market is full of distorsions and dislocations. For instance, we get hired though lots of young university graduates remain on the dole after university.

It is often felt we are being granted privileges and we are not really needed! "

Roger, your two above remarks well illustrate my point. These arrogant individuals think that because they passed CET band 8, their English is such that native speakers need not apply. I've seen the work of these people. It is drivel. Those who can speak, can't write. Those who can write have no listening skills. Those who can listen can't spell.

The government realizes the problem and for that reason established the programs that brought us here. The Chinese are every bit as capable as any of us when it comes to intellectual capacity. The Chinese in America exceeded every other ethnic group on recent overall SAT scores. They were actually lower in verbal reasoning, but their much higher math scores put them over the top.

As I mentioned above, in the field for which we are recruited--oral English, no native Chinese can ever hope to achieve our familiarity with the language. If I was a math teacher, I would think differently. I also know what kind of verbal reasoning scores I had, so I have no qualms about being considered a foreign expert and appropriately compensated.

The real problem is that grass roots resistance to the government program prevents us from being utilized most effectively. You can't stick a white face in a class of 50 students, many of whom can not understand basic commands such as "Put your pencil down," and expect us to work miracles. Our talents are being wasted.

China is attempting a fantastic task in creating a bilingual nation. It will take a few decades, perhaps a century, but it can be done. English is not for every Chinaman. The Philippines teach English to some extent to their people. Some are quite good, others not. No doubt, it will be the same here.

[writpetition]

Comparisons. comparisons and yet more comparisons!
Ok, if that's what is wanted here I go...
For starters, foreign teachers teach 16 hours against 8-10 and sometimes less that non-foreign teachers do. Factor that in and an ft's salary is not that much higher. Non-foreign teachers at my university used to get a base salary and extra for EVERY class they actually taught. FT's were/are paid for eleven months on a 'one-year' contract and a twelfth month only if they re-sign v/s no such limitation for the non-foreign teachers. Adjust another 8.33 percent there.
Ft's get no retirement benefits, no housing benefits (after they do, regardless of the duration of their stay). Many emplyers give zero or near-zero medical benefits. God help an FT who runs into one of those crazy cabs!
Most employers do not allow their FT's to legally take part-time jobs outside. Non-ft's do and even own/rent property on-campus where they run turorials and businesses.
Compare the life-style of any non-foreign teachers + families etc and their spending habits with any FT and you might need to do some serious recalculation.
Look deep - the subterranean looks diferent!

[Talkdoc]

Perhaps people have different arrangements at their prospective universities. I can only speak to what I am earning at my present university and how that compares to the monthly remuneration received by my Chinese counterparts.

I had initially reported that I was earning less but, once I factored in all the variables, including taxes and housing, it appears that I am earning slightly more (see table). The only variable I cannot accurately account for is future pension because I haven't discussed that issue with any of my colleagues as of yet. At any rate, the factor of future pension benefits would not enter directly into the calculation of monthly remuneration. Another factor to consider, one that has not been mentioned, is that Chinese teachers are expected to engage in scholarly work (if they ever plan to progress past the rank of lecturer) and they must attend a myriad of university and faculty meetings that we are excused from.

It is true that the government contract for foreign teachers prohibits outside employment (and I am not sure how this reads for the Chinese faculty) but I have been informed by both my FAO and assistant dean (off the record) that I may engage in outside consultation. My first month here I was contacted by a Hong Kong company with a local branch in my present city to work as a consultant. I receive 1,000 RMB per month salary as a basic retainer (for no work) and an additional $40.00 US (330 RMB) per hour for work accrued each month. I don't know of any Chinese teachers who would ever be offered such a rate of compensation for their services. To date, I have received no less than an additional 3,000 RMB per month for services rendered to that company.

I receive no less than 8,000 RMB per month to live in a clean city with decent beaches in which the average local monthly income is 1,000 RMB; and I work about 50 hours per month for that. In addition, I receive 14,200 per year for travel and airfare expenses. Even without the extra 3,000 RMB, we are still talking about a net salary of close to 6,200 per month (with travel allowance).

For these reasons, it is very difficult for me to relate to comparisons of teaching in China to the inhumanity suffered in Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia. Notwithstanding the outside consultation fees, I earn more than enough to eat daily in 4 and 5-star hotels, enjoy 2-hour Thai massages (the best I've ever had) about three times per week and I have more free time than I know what to do with. I live in a 1100 sq. ft. apartment provided to me gratis, with two televisions, satellite programming and three air conditioners. The pension monies I have saved in the states will last me two lifetimes here.

Yes, the Chinese can be very petty, jealous and resentful. They can also be very caring and concerned at times as well. Nevertheless, when I factor-in all the variables, I simply cannot reasonably argue that I am being exploited or abused - even though it is true I also work hard for every jiao that I make.

Doc

[Roger]

tofuman,
my pointis that we are being used as bona-fide entertainers rather than as serious teachers. If I was taken more seriously by my employers I would be teaching grammar and syntax, and my favourite, literature rather than "SPeaking and Listening" or "oral English". Why do they create such positions in the first place? Utter nonsense since they don't prepare their students for the real life where debating skills are needed. It is WRONG to assume no Chinese teacher can speak English appropriately with their students; this is what they ought to force them to do! Their English teachers should NOT act as bridge-builders using their first lingo to create the illusion "CHinese students UNDERSTAND English". They should force their students to understand their CHinese English teachers speaking ENGLISH, end of my rant! That's the norm everywhere I have been to except in China, Japan and Taiwan.
The CHinerse will always treat English as an academic subject rather than as a practical skill. That's why many parents PAYEXTRA to enrol their kids in "oral English" classes that function much like Chinese English lessons except that the teacher has a white or black face and hardly speaks the local vernacular; often "translators" are supplied (how hilarious!).

Incidentally, what you said about young teachers' ability to teach may be right precisely because of the mess the systems has created and is maintainiing with the present dividison of labour practices; but another fact is that CHinese employers take a hard look at certificates, and young graduates with no experience face hardships even if their English is near perfect. Older ones with proven unsuitability (why can't principals consult one of their foriegn teachers on matters of Chinese English teacher English skills?) retain their jobs...

And here is a clarification for that other poster who claimed Chinese get paid the same for fewer hours:
Not true, not necessarily true. There is a basic minimum salary and a basic minimum amount of work; CHinese teachers are free to accept overtime work, and most do. How much minimum pay is for Chinese I don't know; for us it is set at RMB 2200. I dispute your claim that CHinese earn more for fewer hours PER SE - some universities do pay their CHinese teachers better, but not all do. You are overgeneralising.

I also think it is wrong to compare western-style social perks such as old-age, unemployment and sick benefits with CHinese equivalents. I make this bold claim here: It is OUR OWN obligation to prepare for such problems, since we hail from higher-paying countries where near-perfect sosical institutions are in place to take care of such needs.
If the Chinese had to pay my retirement benefits at the rate to which my old country entitles me they would not employ me here! My retirement benefits will make me relatively wealthy by CHinese standards.

[TEAM_PAPUA]

[tofuman]

Dock,
I do not doubt the veracity of your financial analysis; that, however, is your case. It certainly does not represent the circumstances of my situation, nor that of my FT colleagues at our particular institution. From what I gather, I make significantly more in renminbi each month than do my local counterparts. I have no problem doing that. When I return to the States, I may be virtually unemployable in my field because of my time here.

I, too, was offered an opportunity to teach outside the specs of my contract, which specifically forbids me to so do. The opportunity came with a secrecy clause because it involved personal friends of highly placed individuals. I was also instructed to not let the "big boss" discover this "racket," since it was known that he disapproved of such activity. I declined the additional income.

The lessons to be gleaned from the books I recommended may not be applicable to your case. I assure you that they are to mine. If the posts that I read here are true, they would inform many other FTs as well.

Arndt's book is not about Nazi Germany. It is about Adolf Eichmann's behaviour and thoughts and words after being captured by Israelis. It is a psychological profile of Eichmann's moral consciousness. It is helpful in understanding how people can smile and shake your hand and assure you of their concern while they are in the process of defrauding and swindling you.

It is about the problem of evil, which I see manifested here, nay, institutionalized here, on a daily basis.

First Circle concerns the mentality of collective atheistic consciousness, also known as communism. It describes the tactics employed by entities concerned about maintaining control over other people. If you think that is irrelevant to the present situation in China or that these methods or a form of them are not currently being used, you are mistaken.

I can assure you that fear and intimidation are basic tools utilized by individuals in the school at which I teach. Solzhenitsyn masterfully illustrates these techniques in his book.

"Different strokes for different folks" is most likely the explanation for the difference in our experiences. That, however, is my fault, not yours.

Most of us do not have doctoral degrees. Frankly, if you have an earned doctorate in a relevant field, you seem underpaid, even in China. But that's your business. Perhaps that is why you are being nicely treated. Our school gave us the mei you routine over things we were guaranteed in our contract, but they have plenty of black cars, drivers, and a newly decorated administration wing.

I never read Peck's book, People of the Lie but I certainly understand the concept.

[tofuman]

"I dispute your claim that CHinese earn more for fewer hours PER SE - some universities do pay their CHinese teachers better, but not all do. You are overgeneralising."

Roger,
Are you sure that I made that claim? Since I don't believe it, I doubt that I said it. If I did say it, thank you for bringing it to my attention. I deny it.

[writpetition]

[Burl Ives]

I think there is something misguided in comparing our state with that of our Chinese counterparts, counterparts though they may be supposed to be. If we are teaching within the same system, then we are better thought of as parts of a complex whole, and not automatically comparable, though that is unlikely to be the way we are understood by our employers and audience.

Now, I don't remember to have heard too many an envious word spoken, except by the occasional FAO looking for some leverage, but if there is envy or resentment, and it can be thought of as having some objective basis, as opposed to being the product of an immature and reflexive culture, I suppose it to have the same root as the standard difficulty encountered in the classroom: western method does not jibe with eastern expectation. Just as we know what a teacher should be, so too do Chinese know what a teacher should be, but these two sets of concepts are different, and that the Chinese in today's China are about as able to adapt to novelty as a prisoner is to run a mile so we irritate and confound. But that said, I really don't think very many Chinese think very hard at all about foreigners. I think they pay attention mostly to their own situation in their own structures. For most of them, we are incidental.

It may be something to be grateful for. As China and Chinese schools becomes more confident in their role and as their "modern" forms become more institutionalised, so too will disappear our comparative freedom to just go ahead and teach as we think we should. Soon we are going to have to start meeting their expectations.



(And then there's the impression I have gained from talking to a valued colleague. She, a Chinese teacher of English of considerable ability, says that only teachers in her position, "assistant" lecturers at college-level, would make less than a foreign teacher. She says this looking at me as I get 4000 a month. At other grades the Chinese teacher's salary would be much the same or higher. She says this from experience in the middle of China and in the east. It would be the same, too, if we were looking at middle and primary school teachers, she says.)

[Susie]

As I have argued before, the Chinese can earn extra money since they are not limited by legal restrictions as foreigners are.

[Asialiner]

Qiongzhou University in Wuzhishan Hainan also has a bad FAO. Repairs take forever - 4 weeks for my washing machine - 3 weeks for my refrigerator - 3 weeks for hot water in the shower! The FAO has lied so many times, I no longer trust anything he says. If he helps me with anything, it costs me extra money since he only takes me to his friends. He will even have you pay for things the school should pay for. If you really need help, like when the power goes out or you're really sick, you can't find the guy. Could it be no kick backs at the hospital? I had to go to the school president to get the forms to wire money home, and it was a one shot deal since the FAO wouldn't get the correct form so I could wire money home as needed.

In another post, someone said to avoid the FAO. Unfortunately, at my school, you must go through the FAO for everything. I'm glad to hear my problems are common at other schools. I was thinking it was just me.

[Roger]

I just wish to set Susie right about Chinese teachers having the "right" to make extra money. Susie, I have told you, I believe, in the past that this ain't true. They are NOT ALLOWED TO, but they do it anyway.
But then again we should compare likes with likes. Chinese teachers are a kind of civil servants; my first school many years ago had total control over their teachers except in the matter of how they spent their leisure time. Many a Chinese moonlighted; when we FTs got offers from part-time employers we were routinely told that it was not policy to allow anyone to work on the side. Thus we dropped our requests (but I don't know if all of us respected this ban; I for one did). I knew Chinese guys who worked elsewhere, though, and I never understood why the same guy wouldn't work longer hours at our school.
The oldest teachers at that school also had no right, absolutely no right, to quit their jobs; they had been hired in the days when anyone who was looking for employment hoped to get a lifetime job, and that's what teachers would get there. If they wanted to quit they had to ask principals for release, and possibly bribe them.

On another plane, Chinese teachers put in a lot of extra time doing other chores such as "self-study class" monitoring in the evening and attending weekly meetings.

[kev7161]

Once a month (usually) we have a FT meeting with our FAO. The first one, the principal was there for about 10 minutes. Spoke about welcome to our school, cooperation, blah, blah, blah. Then she was out the door.

The general itinerary of our meetings concerns things such as upcoming holidays, pay schedules, electricity problems, food concerns, bus schedules, shopping trips, etc.

Any time we bring up problems with the actual TEACHING of students (how to speak over the din, what to do with discipline, teaching materials, etc.), we get pooh-poohed: "talk to your director of your department". In other words, "not my job". Then we tell him that we HAVE talked to our director and problems are never fixed. I can't communicate with my director because I don't speak Chinese and he doesn't speak English. I must rely on my FAO to translate, but he is just too busy.

We will have a pre-meeting next week amongst the foreign teachers so we can (hopefully) get some problems resolved at the "real" meeting, but I won't hold my breath.