Job Discussion Forums

[Laura C]

I think it's a great idea. Opinions on discussion boards are a particular form of writing and can be used to show how English itself is used. Eg, a student could be interested in seeing how to politely disagree with someone, how a word can be taken out of context, and how debates develop. Essential for an advanced learner, I think. And I wouldn't have a problem at all with someone using my posts, unless it was about something like pot and it got back to my boss (unlikely, I know).

L

[dyak]

Maybe I'm being naive but I thought the point of the internet, and especially discussion forums such as this one, was to freely share, distribute and interpret information.

As far as I can see, Matt is not doing anything the internet doesn't already do. Anyone of his students can look at this page. As soon as you hit the submit button you agree that anyone anywhere can read and interpret what you're saying; that he should ask (your egos) for permission is just absurd.

The only difference is, his students are looking at a piece of paper and not a computer screen. I'm sure they find it relevant and informative, and I would certainly use the idea myself. Carry on the innovation!

[matttheboy]

Moonraven,

I asked you to contribute to this thread because it is you who posts the majority of political messages and very little to do with teaching. As you regularly claim to be an experienced educator (since 1968 no less) I naively assumed you might have something to contribute. Instead you took umbrage at my asking a fellow teacher for their opinion and personally insulted me, as is your wont.


I am at a loss when trying to understand how using original material whilst preparing my lessons makes me lazy. I would contend that, by looking for material that doesn�t come from a text book and by tying that material into a class topic, I am being the exact opposite of lazy. It takes far more time to prepare an original lesson that simply photocopying a few exercises from a book. It also makes my time spent on Dave�s useful time in contrast to your time which is, in the main, spent insulting other members who have the audacity to disagree with you.

As for your insinuation that my lessons are not student centred, I ask you how you would know this? Have you ever sat in on one of my lessons? If allowing students to address a topic they find interesting, to talk about said topic amongst themselves, with the teacher merely listening for mistakes and offering help with vocabulary etc is teacher centred then I hold my hands up.

You also insinuated that I am using my classes to push my own political agenda. Again, I am confused as to how you could possibly know this. In actual fact, when a student asks me what I think other students will say �I�m your teacher, I have no opinion� which is what I tell them whenever I�m asked my views on a controversial topic. Students of any age can be impressionable and so I keep my opinions to myself.

Marblez and Moonraven,

This forum is for public viewing. Any one in the world can view the messages on this site without even needing to be a member. If I took my students to a computer and asked them to view the posts on the internet would you complain? Could you complain? All I am doing is taking publicly available information, which is not protected under any form of copyright law, and using it as a teaching aid. I have already suggested that if you would like to copyright your words you should consult with a lawyer.

Perhaps I should suggest that if you do not wish for people to read your personal, private opinions you stop posting them on a public internet forum. Maybe you could take advantage of the �Private Message� function or a private and secure email address if you wish to enter into a closed debate.

[marblez]

*I* personally do not mind if my own content is taken from this site without permission. I think it's a good idea, actually. But I think you should ask permission, or at least offer an opt-out option for those who do not want their content presented in a classroom. As you can see, some people (well, one) have clearly stated that this would bother them, and it's nice (not mandatory) to at least consider that.

[moonraven]

Matt--Show me some insulting language in my post to you.

1. It is your intent that I find ethical problems with. You already bragged about your students having followed your line by referring to the political posts as claptrap. Your words were precisely the following:

"one student said a certain poster was �nutty as a fruit cake�. Another student agreed and said the poster had written �a load of old clap-trap�. I like it when students remember what I teach them� "

That showed very clearly that you are pushing an idealogical bias in class.

I am personally against inflicting biases on students. You now say that you are, too, but your initial post indicates the opposite.

2. You not only have been using our posts in the classroom for quite some time, but you did so without asking for our permission. I find that an act of bad faith.

I am not going to repeat what I have already stated. You asked for my opinion. You got it. You didn't like it. That does not annul my right to have given it.

It is clear to me that you also asked for it in bad faith. For that reason, you will not have to try to manipulate my posts into somehow being insulting to you, as I will simply not respond to you in future.

I hope that meets with your satisfaction.

[matttheboy]

Moonraven, you have deliberately missed off the beginning of my sentence in your quote in order to twist it to fit in with your plainly inaccurate idea that i am pushing my own politics on my students. The full quote is as follows:

QUOTE:

'A couple of weeks after teaching some English idioms and slang, one student said a certain poster was �nutty as a fruit cake�. Another student agreed and said the poster had written �a load of old clap-trap�.'

So, in a class 2 weeks prior to the class in question i was teaching English idioms and slang. 2 weeks after that class, and in a totally different class (this one about politics), my students remembered what i had taught them. How is that 'pushing an ideological bias'?

You insulted me on more than one occasion by calling me lazy. You have absolutely no grounds for that slander.

I have explained to you twice why i asked you to participate in this thread and not once in 'bad faith'.

[Glenski]

[Guy Courchesne]

Copyright law in this respect is being debated elsewhere as well. for an interesting read...

http://weblogs.about.com/od/issuesanddiscussions/a/copyrightblogs.htm

If I understand it correctly Matt, you could theoretically be sued in a US court for using entire postings in your classrooms, even though it may be a non-commercial act, and even if you cite the source and add commentary. While I couldn't find info for public forum postings, I think it might be similar to blogs.

Personally, I don't see the harm, but you know how litigious some people and orgs can be.[/url]

[matttheboy]

Interesting article Guy. However, i and my solicitor (my brother) contend that copyright law is not applicable in this case. Weblogs are a kind of online magazine/newspaper whilst this website is a 'forum' where there is a free interchange of ideas and opinions. The title of this forum is important- 'General DISCUSSION'. Can you copyright a conversation you have with a man in the street?

People posting on this forum have no copyright protection although there is a small possibility that Dave himself could sue for for breach of copyright judging by this statement from the link you posted:

"Someone who owns a copyright in a book, movie, Web page, computer program, song, etc. generally has a legal right to stop other people from copying or publicly performing that work (or doing a few other things to it)."

This quote is enlightening as well:

"Copying or publicly performing someone else's WORK (my emphasis) without the owner's permission --- BUT some such uses are OK, especially if they fall within the often ill-defined "fair use" exception (which incidentally varies quite a bit from country to country)."

I really do hope that none of the posters believes that writing messages on this forum is a type of 'work'...

I assume that Dave has legally copyrighted this website...

This is an interesting topic; i might use it in my next class with a lawyer student...

[dyak]

Hello Matt's Students!

[matttheboy]

Of course, i sort the wheat from the chaff dyak!!!!

[Guy Courchesne]

I too offer a hello to your students Matt. Assuming the babble I write may be usable somewhere to someone, you have my permission to use anthing I write here in your classes.

That 'fair use' clause is the key no? This is of course something all reporters, editors, and writers need be aware of. In spirit, it was meant that one could quote a source as long as credit was given and the material taken wasn't presented out of context. It is common practice in newspapers, magazines, book reviews, and now blogs. However, since 'fair use' is vague, it leaves the door open for the original author to contest its use.

While I agree with you on the nature of a public forum, I think that eventually national and international laws will catch up soon enough. The ones to lead the charge on copyright are the record companies, looking to extend copyright length in the UK (current story on BBC online).

[Deconstructor]

Moonraven,

How often have you quoted another poster in your own posts? Aren�t you violating the very copyright law for which you�ve become a �champion�?

According to your logic no one should use newspaper articles in their classes either, but this is being done regularly in many ESL classes and is legal. Daves is a public ESL forum, and I am sure that Dave would be delighted to know that the material on it is being used to better students' proficiency in English.

Though I do have a feeling that no one is going to "steal" yours even if you do think that it is at a Joycean calibre.

Get over it and stop calling yourself experienced and intelligent.

[Susan K]

Dear all,

Thank you for this excellent read!

Moonraven's objections were interesting because they showed that there is room for ambivalence about how this Internet posting business offers people the chance to express themselves without declaring their identity. Why do they remain anonymous? I'm trying to think of any other setting where it's a possibility ... heavy breathers on the phone? ... chance conversations on train journeys?

It seems to me that it is exactly because the opinions given are cloaked in anonymity that their use is o.k. as teaching material. They seem to be slung out into the ether where the wind bloweth as it listeth. It is, simply, a rare privilege for Moonraven to hear what use has been made of the scraps (s)he has thus tossed to the winds.

At the same time, it is interesting that Matttheboy (?sp?) felt a need to draw attention to that use and to insist on a reaction from Moonraven ... did he, perhaps, have some qualms?

Often, on this site, people ask for a bit of new inspiration for their job. Whether the other writers provide it knowingly or unknowingly is surely immaterial.

The aspect of Matttheboy's mail that really made me smile was that someone has found the apotheosis of what I most object to when I get round to reading a thread - the fact that the people writing here are supposed to be teachers of English and yet make so many linguistic errors!
I hope his students realise that "participation" is a necessary correction!

As ever, Susan K.

[Deconstructor]

Dear Susan K,

We remain anonymous for the same reason that you remain anonymous. It really makes no difference since even if we did use our real names, nothing could come of it: we will not be arrested, lynched, undergo a trial as witches and burnt.

What I find especially apt is your use of K as your last name. Isn't the most anonymous character in literary history Kafka's Joseph K who was eventually murdered "like a dog"?

Hypocrisy galore.

I also find your comparison of the people in this forum to heavy breathers on a phone especially distasteful.