Job Discussion Forums

Tomjonesman · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 23 Location: Rhode Island

Not to name names of summer programs, but I sent an "online" contract back to the organization of where I'd be teaching this summer. They sent me an acceptance letter with "confirmed" contract to sign in Microsoft Word to send back to them in e-mail. My question is: How binding is an "online" contract as opposed to the "confirmed" contract? I believe if they send an acceptance letter and I don't send it back with a signature on it, I'm off the hook.

The reason I'm now reluctant to teach in the program in the summer is that I found out (by asking) when they pay teachers, and they don't pay till the end. It says how much they'll pay in the contract, but not when. How do they expect a person to live if they pay them at the end? I told them I don't think I want to commit to this if they pay at the end.

The contract says something about pursuing the teacher with their lawyers in his home country if the teacher doesn't show for the assignment (to cover any loss to them--what loss? All they're paying is a salary and room and board). Plus technically I don't think I've committed to the program yet until I send back the final contract in Word.

Can someone please help me here with advice? Yes, I probably should have done my homework and asked this question before even getting to a contract stage, but we all have moments when we don't think. I suppose you could say, "Shame on you," but the situation is where it is.

Any feedback would be helpful. Again, I have not sent back the final confirmed contract. Frankly, I don't see how they can pursue me in the USA. They do have my passport #, phone, name, address, etc., but what good will that do them? What are they going to do realistically? Send me a letter asking me to pay them for the salary and room and board if I don't show?

ShapeSphere · Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 386

Firstly I won't say "shame on you", as you're right we do have moments like this. I should know from my own experience of 15 months in China.

You have not signed the contract, so it is not legally binding. They can do nothing to you. And they will do nothing to you. It's all empty words.

My own feeling is that they are trying to scare and bully you into coming. This is a common practice amongst Chinese management. Which I know from experience, this site and friends/colleagues/acquaintances in person.

You're naturally worried but stand up to them and don't tolerate their bullying and lies. Be firm and polite.

I actually had a Chinese manager 'threaten' me (not physically) after I resigned, I don't get angry often but I told this toad-like charlatan never to make threats like that to me. He got scared and backed down. My blood still boils at the memory.

Tomjonesman · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 23 Location: Rhode Island

ShapeSphere, technically I haven't resigned because I haven't signed the contract and the program doesn't begin till July anyway.

ShapeSphere · Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 386

I know you haven't resigned, I just used an example of their threats to illustrate the nature of business here.

Let's also wait and see what others with more experience of China have to say. I gave you my opinion based on personal facts, but experts may have other ideas.

Tomjonesman · Joined: 05 Jan 2005 Posts: 23 Location: Rhode Island

Could I ask them to pay me in advance and put that in writing? Or is trying to get this out of them a waste of time?

tofuman · Joined: 02 Jul 2004 Posts: 937

TJM,
I have been here about the same amount of time as the previous poster; however, I consider the years of experience I had working with sociopaths and criminals especially relevant to working in China.

You sound like a man with a conscience--a good thing. But do not borrow trouble. If you have not signed a finalized contract, you are not obligated. Doesn't it raise red flags that these people are already threatening and intimidating you and you are not even in China yet?

I once picked up a girl hitchiking and when she got in the car she said, "You're not going to take me someplace and murder me, are you?"

I asked her why she would get in a car if she thought there was even a remote chance of being murdered? This was a girl who had some real issues.

You already see a great way for these folks to swindle you. I regret every advantage these people have over me. I do not get my air fare till the end of the contract. I regret that. I do not speak the language but a little. I regret that because I have had to use a FAO/ translator who often lies.

You are inviting these people to abuse you, unless you have solid references that they do pay at the end. If it is inconvient for you, don't do it.

There was a candidate coming here who the school had gotten documents for. She asked to correspond with me after agreeing to come. The school put a lot of effort into getting her documents. She did not like what I told her and backed out of the contract. The school was livid so I wrote to her again and put a different spin on things. The lady would not have done well here, but why didn't she talk to me first?

The FAO told me the PSB was also angry and were going to red flag her in the computer so she might never be able to get a visa for China. Perhaps a lie, but a lot of inconvience for the authorities. Had she done her homework, she would have saved a lot of people trouble, including myself.

If the hiring entities here did not lie in the first place, they would not have had these problems.

Be careful.

ShapeSphere · Joined: 16 Oct 2004 Posts: 386

Pay you in advance for teaching? No chance. It would be a physical and mental impossibility for them to do that. The shock would kill them.

I don't like the way they will pay you at the end of your contract. What if they don't pay you? You've finished the contract and then you're no use to them. Creates bad feelings in my mind. Better to look elsewhere at a school which pays monthly. IMO.

That's enough of my input for the moment, my word is not gospel, just based on my own experiences - and we really need to hear other views.

Laoshi1950 · Joined: 22 May 2004 Posts: 198 Location: Australia

My advice is to forget this Summer job offer. Find a different one. You have not signed any Contract with the school, so they have no 'hold' on you.

I agree with ShapeSphere - there is little likelihood that the school would pay you in advance. It is simply not on their radar to do that.

My currently monthly salary is due 25 January. However, I will be on holiday in Australia when that payday arrives. I asked for the salary to be paid to me on 21 January, before I leave China - so I could use this salary money that I have already earned. It was impossible for the university Finance Office to pay me 4 days early!

Interestingly, it was possible to pay the salary up to a week early at vacation times, at my two previous universities in other cities in China.

Good luck in your search for a suitable Summer job.

Roger · Joined: 19 Jan 2003 Posts: 9138

Unfortunately, you left a lot unsaid in your post. Summer jobs seldom are legal. Why would they hire someone from overseas for the duration of 2 months at most? Do they pay airfare? Do they offer you a work visa? I guess, there are only 'Nos' to my questions. That is why I assume their "contract" is nothing but a piece of paper with zero adoand too much bluster. Enforce a contract in YOUR country? That's total news to me! They can't even enforce most contracts LOCALLY.

Our university "hires" corvee labourers for summer camps. These guys and gals won't get paid a cent, come here at their own expense, and enjoy "cultural immersion" in China of all places...
We FTs at our university had to move out during last summer holidays to make room for those corvee labourers; all of us found our apartments trashed upon our coming back...
And the lady that lived in my place gave me a sort of trouble I hardly ever cdould imagine myself: my so-called wife called here, only to be surprised that a woman was in my university apartment... You can imagine the rest of the story... well, some of it anyway!

kev7161 · Joined: 06 Feb 2004 Posts: 5880 Location: Suzhou, China

It's pretty standard for a month-long, summer camp job to be paid at the end. Sometimes they may pay you a portion of it mid-way through and then the balance at the end. Most summer jobs give you a place to live and 3 meals a day (maybe not top quality food, but there it is) or even a meal allowance (paid to you at the beginning) so, really, all you need is a little of your own personal money for shopping for trinkets and treasures to bring back home.

Also, most summer camps work you silly and there is precious little time to go out and spend money. Many of them provide local tours free of charge as well. If you brought, say, $100 of your own money, that could easily last you pretty much your entire stay.

Norman Bethune · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 731

malcoml · Joined: 28 Dec 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Australia

Uner Australian law a contract does not have to be in writing to be legal. I would assume it is the same in America as you law would be based on the British system. When a telemarketer rings you to sell you a phone on contract. You quite often agree to the contract by answering yes. Your answering yes has just locked you in.
As for the chance of the school sending a solicitor to get you. It would not physically be worth it for them, could you imagine the expense. They would spend more money in a day on a solicitor than your pay would have been for a month.
I would not have looked at a contract that stated they would pay you at the end of a season. Would you work a job like that in your own country ?

cj750 · Joined: 27 Apr 2004 Posts: 3081 Location: Beijing

I seem to remember a Utah outfit that would charge a fee if you did nt show...by placing a notice on your credit rating...not sure if it were true but I remember the threat...in the contract that they sent to me....never signed it or went any further....

Norman Bethune · Joined: 19 Apr 2004 Posts: 731

shuize · Joined: 04 Sep 2004 Posts: 1270

You have agreed to nothing, therefore there is nothing they could do to you.

True, contracts need not always be in writing. But it sure helps when it comes time to prove the case in court. Your argument would be that up until they sent the terms of the contract, you were still negotiating.

But, as already been pointed out above, even if you did agree and backed out while in the U.S., practically speaking there is really nothing they could do to you. What, hire a U.S. based attorney to sue you for breach of what probably amounts to a few thousand dollars at best? Sure. The U.S. attorney would probably laugh them off the phone.

Think long and hard about agreeing to work for a school that won't pay you anything until you're finished.