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Norman Bethune
Joined: 19 Apr 2004
Posts: 731
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 Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 5:55 pm Post subject: Re: Lessons My Father Never Taught Me... |
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| Talkdoc wrote: |
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| It is up to the teacher to be informed. |
Sure it is. But I personally think it is very difficult to know exactly what to prepare for, exactly what to attend to, until you've worked in China first-hand.
Sure, it is our responsibility to be and stay informed. But most reasonable, intelligent and well-educated people are going to apply the standards they are accustomed to, that have bode them well in the past, when doing so. Even if you are fortunate enough to find Dave's ESL Cafe before accepting your initial position, how much reading or how many answered questions are sufficient in order to meet the definitions of prepared and informed? Doc |
I had done a lot of reading and research before coming to China. I expected beuracracy, to be lied to, and I expected the worst.
Before coming I was prepared for anything. I still am. Pollyanna's expect all to be rosy. I don't. It is the optimists who get into the most trouble here, in my experience.
My situation now is fairly good. Yet, as a born pessimist, I expect the police to come to my door at any moment.
Talkdoc, you can diagnose me as paranoid or whatever else you like if you like. But I tend to look ahead to the worst case secenario. The worst things that can happen to a foreigner in China is imprisonment, physical abuse, and death.
I applied the standards I was used to in the west before coming to China and after arriving. All over the world capitalists, bosses, and people in authority, want to exploit others and exert the power they have. The only way for an average Joe to avoid becoming a victim is to be armed with the knowledge and willingness needed to fight back.
Oh and having a well-hone bull-shirt detector. |
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davis
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 297
Location: in the Land of the Big Rice
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| Posted: Wed Jan 26, 2005 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| So let me just jump in here...I came to China in 2002 on an L visa.. I was pretty much "wingin it" because I had no official invitation nor did I have a Z visa. I had several job offers and 200 dollars. Hey, the summer program worked out well and I had an additional 6000 RMB to my name. I checked out a long term offer in Nanning and decided to stay. They said they could only supply an F visa. I knew I wasn't strictly legal and assumed that responsibility. Every three months they would ask me for three photos and go to the PSB and renew my visa. I don't know why they needed so many photos...darts, mastubation purposes? It was a risk and I accepted that risk. My second year here I was very up front with would be employers- no Z- no me. I've not had a problem since. One would-be employer even told me they would get me a Z visa on another school's guanxi. Needless to say I didn't take the job. (It didn't pay enough.) What I'm trying to say is, if you come to China (or any foreign country) you owe it to yourself to error on the side of caution. After all, it's a foreign country. Roger, no exit, and Norman are right. It's illegal to work on an F visa. If you get in trouble the school will wave goodbye (as they smile) and you'll be the one left trying to explain why you were violating the laws of a sovreign country. At least my first school told me to tell anyone that asked that I was a "consultant" and thereby minimizing the risks of being busted. |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:11 am Post subject: |
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This is a sensitive issue. On the one hand we're dealing with state sovereignty, whereby the Chinese government does have the legal right to decide which visas to issue (or not) to foreigners, and which are acceptable for working. It's an established fact that, legally, you need a Z visa and contract with a sponsoring employer to work.
But on the other hand, we're dealing with a labor market where the demand for native English speakers far outweighs the supply at this time, COMBINED WITH lax enforcement by the PSB on proper visas. Given these connected realities, many teachers and employers decide to skirt the visa regulations and take the risks involved. This would include having teachers arrive on L visas and then changing them later.
I'm not condoning this behavior, I'm just stating what happens.
Further, we can't expect the status quo, as it were, to go on forever. If and when China becomes more economically powerful, the demand for English teachers goes down, or a whole host of other reasons, it's a simple matter for the PSB to toughen up their visa enforcement. As China develops more, so will their visa situation.
After all, visa regulations and enforcement are already super strict in most developed countries where we come from. If it were easy, people would be flocking north in droves, and the problems that Roger talks about would happen - others would be competing for our jobs.
Then again, you could argue that this already happens in two cases, probably more:
(1) The USA is lax on illegal Mexican immigration because those people can help fill the demand for low-wage service jobs that many Americans don't want to do.
(2) High-tech and call centre jobs are being farmed out to India where they will do them for a fraction of the labor costs that Westerners demand.
As I see it, global market dynamics tend to override state sovereignty.
Steve |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Klava dear, don't worry about these boys, they can be rude at times. You are not doing anything that the locals don't do. Many employers from the city will hire non-locals just so they don't have to file the documents and pay the fees or the health care. I would say that you have fit into the working culture well. |
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Talkdoc
Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 696
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:22 am Post subject: Re: Lessons My Father Never Taught Me... |
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| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| I expected beuracracy, to be lied to, and I expected the worst. (emphasis added) |
Well, that is at least one way that you and I are different: if I had expected the worst, I never would have traveled half-way around the world to work here. I certainly did not expect to have my physical welfare disregarded or to be threatened with bodily harm by my employer: nor did anything I had read prior to making the move, prepare me for that.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| Pollyanna's expect all to be rosy. I don't. It is the optimists who get into the most trouble here, in my experience. |
Based on my personal experience, the ones who "get into the most trouble here," are those with extremely low-levels of frustration tolerance who, at times, precipitate their own crises or who create them when they otherwise could have been avoided. One of phenomena that truly amazes me about China is the number of times that various matters, that I had generally considered to be dead or disregarded, are somehow, days, weeks and even months later, resolved in my favor - mostly because I chose to do nothing at all about it (having considered the matter dead). Knowing when to be assertive, aggressive and (especially) silent (in order to achieve the most desired effect) is something of an acquired art-form for foreigners in China (and it is a decision-making process that I am still learning about and still making mistakes with). This skill is far less important in the West because, as a rule, matters are handled far more expeditiously and often because resolving it (in the manner it was) was the "right thing" to do - not so in China. Matters (at times) get handled and resolved here in a manner that seems to defy all logic or reason (at least by Western standards) and rarely because it was the right thing to do or because it was in the contract.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
My situation now is fairly good. Yet, as a born pessimist, I expect the police to come to my door at any moment.
Talkdoc, you can diagnose me as paranoid or whatever else you like if you like. But I tend to look ahead to the worst case secenario. The worst things that can happen to a foreigner in China is imprisonment, physical abuse, and death. |
Well I don't think you literally mean you expect the police to show up at your door at any moment, any more than you contemplate the mortality rates in home-based accidents every time you step into your shower or tub (correct me if I am wrong - in which case, we need to talk). "Imprisonment, physical abuse and death" are also the worst things that can happen to an American citizen in America - but I didn't live out my days there worrying about that any more (or less) than I do here. For that matter, from what I can see, foreigners get away with "murder" here. Can I tell you the number of foreigners who are driving around in my current city on motorbikes (sometimes right through police lines) with no driver's licenses and expired (even missing) license plates? I don't know about the policies in other provinces but at least where I am working now, there does seem to be a "hands-off" policy where foreigners are concerned.
| Norman Bethune wrote: |
| I applied the standards I was used to in the west before coming to China and after arriving. All over the world capitalists, bosses, and people in authority, want to exploit others and exert the power they have. |
I guess we have had very different prior experiences. Certainly you are not suggesting that the overall degree and breadth of exploitation were the same in Canada (for example) as they are here in China against foreigners?
My original post (on this thread) attempted, in small part, to address the reasons why a young but otherwise sincere and intelligent prospective teacher might violate the law regarding Visas. I would never knowingly enter a foreign country in violation of its laws (irrespective of my understanding of how strictly they are enforced). I always advise prospective teachers to come to China with nothing less than a Z-Visa: but for every such post, there are at least one or two speaking of how it is unnecessary to do so. I can see how that could be confusing, especially when people like Alin Bruer, Western recruiters, FAOs and some forum members are all echoing the same position.
Doc |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 3:37 am Post subject: |
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Discussions like this one lure some of the best and many of the worst of our fellow human beings out of the closet.
When I joined Dave's cafe years ago I never expected to be rubbing shoulders with MOD EDIT that can't resist the temptation to exhort others publicly to come to China and consciously break laws here and elsewhere.
Brave New World...Any way, retribution often comes, and when it comes it is merciless! |
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cj750
Joined: 27 Apr 2004
Posts: 3081
Location: Beijing
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:20 am Post subject: |
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| Doc, even though many folks (Chinese and Foreign) drive with no driver's licenses and expired (even missing) license plates and it seems there is a hands off policy..when something happens you will pay...it is always best to be legal..certainly in cases of liability...that said "you pays your money and takes your chances"..or so say the guys on the carnaval rides..and it is the responsibility of the foreiigner to know whats what...over here no one will be responsible for you except yourself...breaking the law should be observed as any other venture...you need to have back up and bust money if the unfortunate happens.. |
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struelle
Joined: 16 May 2003
Posts: 2372
Location: Shanghai
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:31 am Post subject: |
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| Roger wrote: |
Discussions like this one lure some of the best and many of the worst of our fellow human beings out of the closet.
When I joined Dave's cafe years ago I never expected to be rubbing shoulders with MOD EDIT that can't resist the temptation to exhort others publicly to come to China and consciously break laws here and elsewhere.
Brave New World...Any way, retribution often comes, and when it comes it is merciless! |
| ? wrote: |
| Doc, even though many folks (Chinese and Foreign) drive with no driver's licenses and expired (even missing) license plates and it seems there is a hands off policy..when something happens you will pay...it is always best to be legal..certainly in cases of liability...that said "you pays your money and takes your chances"..or so say the guys on the carnaval rides.. |
Woah, woah, woah, let's just back up a second here. We obviously have strong opinions on this, becauase we're either calling people MOD EDIT or comparing legal matters to carnaval rides. So let's stop and think for a second about what it is we're getting so riled up over.
In my postings, I never encourage people to come to China and break regulations at will, as that's plain foolishness. At the same time, it is with a degree of flexibility that I view the established regulations, focusing more on the the people involved and how they are affected. Also, to borrow from Confucius, maintaining 'right relationships' with others in China tends to be more important than strictly following every rule in the book.
This is pretty much how it works. People come first, rules come second. Notice how I didn't say rules aren't important. They are very important, but we have to remember why they exist in the first place.
Specifically, about this whole working on an F visa or L visa thing. My advice to newbies is quite simple: Don't do it! This whole shenanigan started with the OP who was naive about the visa regulations and ended up making a mistake. She should've known earlier, but now she's learned. Let's just try to forgive her and get on with it.
Steve |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 8:17 am Post subject: |
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| evaforsure wrote: |
| Klava dear, don't worry about these boys, they can be rude at times. You are not doing anything that the locals don't do. Many employers from the city will hire non-locals just so they don't have to file the documents and pay the fees or the health care. I would say that you have fit into the working culture well. |
Always helpful advice from westerners - MOD EDIT |
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evaforsure
Joined: 26 Jun 2004
Posts: 1217
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:46 am Post subject: |
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| It would seem that Roger the Dodger is the one is getting riled up. Never broke the law MOD EDIT |
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Mr. Kalgukshi
Mod Team
Joined: 18 Jan 2003
Posts: 6613
Location: Need to know basis only.
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| Posted: Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:13 pm Post subject: Locked |
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| Much too heated and much too personal. Locked so that things will hopefully cool down. |
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Roger
Joined: 19 Jan 2003
Posts: 9138
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| Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:41 am Post subject: |
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This thread was locked due in part to my misbehaviour; I apologise for having used an inappropriate word in reference to another poster.
But I do hope people refrain from provoking tantrums by giving what can safely be said to be bad advice.
I hope any newbie does their homework in relation to their rights and duties and reflects on what is the legal situation both in their home country as well as in the country they intend going to work in.
And I also hope people refrain from openly encouraging forumites to disregard legal provisions.
We as foreign nationals in China have a descending reputation to save and to in fact improve. The more we break local rules and laws the worse for all of us. Our honour used to be a lot better. |
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