Job Discussion Forums

Jasmeen · Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 16

Hey everyone,

ILA do a lot of advertising for positions all over the web. Just wondering if this is:

a) due to natural attrition and the a large number of staff;
b) a high turnover of dissatisfied staff;
c) low wages/autocratic leadership/difficulties in advancing/unreliable payments/higher taxing.

Are new recruits stuck with children's classes for the first year or are there opportunities to vary?

Are there happy ILA teachers out there? Or "experienced" ones?

Is ILA a typical/abnormal institution in the private ESL marketplace?

It would be great to hear some thought on this...

Cheers

hoodooguru · Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 13

I am among one of the legions of teachers I know who USED to work at ILA.

There is no doubt that ILA is one of the biggest and well resourced language centres in Ho Chi minh City. ***APPLAUD PLEASE***

But they certainly have their share of detractors because:

A) Disputes with management (both personal and professional)
B) Issues such as accrued overtime (paid at the completion of contracts)
C) Inability to accept constructive advice/criticism

There are a whole quagmire of other issues that I can't verify as facts so I won't post them here.

I hope this helps

Jasmeen · Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 16

So, any takers on the "quagmire" issues?

Size, resources & HCMC = Yay

but I'm not a fan of suffering poor conditions/hours/pay/locations/opp.s for development because I'm not among the DOS's preferred drinking buddies (if it's indeed that bad/simple) or vocationally mashochistic (if its unusually exploitative). Evil or Very Mad

Thanks for the heads-up, Hoodooguru! Smile

Mr Wind-up Bird · Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 196

Someone from ILA interviewed me by telephone last month, & they were pressuring me to sign a full-time contract. However I have no intention of working for them because:

1. Any overtime accrued is only paid at the end of your contract;
2. If you want to work for them part-time, which I did, they will only offer you work on Sat & Sun.

I wasn't really impressed by the conditions and the fact that they're constantly advertising must say something...

hoodooguru · Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 13

I haven't heard anything about the latest possible scandal but I do remember strong rumours of financial ahem....problems a couple of years ago.

ILA did split from Nord Anglia (their previous partner) and went into partnership with Studygroup around that time though.....makes you wonder

Snaff · Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 142

spycatcher · Joined: 06 Feb 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Ho Chi Minh City

Original questions:

Hey everyone,

ILA do a lot of advertising for positions all over the web. Just wondering if this is:

a) due to natural attrition and the a large number of staff;

I believe, ILA has about 100 foreign teachers. If the average teacher stays two year, which I doubt they do, then they need to employ 1 new teacher every week.

In addition to this I believe ILA is expanding rapidly so needs more teachers for this.

Because of these issues it is no wonder that they are in continual need of new teachers and hence advertise for this requirement.

b) a high turnover of dissatisfied staff;

All schools have their detractors, and it has been noted on this site a number of times that it is unhappy teachers that post considerably more than happy teachers, and from my experience one of the main reasons that teachers are unhappy at a good school (For the purpose of this response I am assuming ILA is a "good school") is because the school is unhappy with the teacher. I believe ILA does have high expectations from their teachers and they put more pressure on teachers to perform than other schools do. Hence they could be unhappy with some of their "non performers" and when this happens the non performers are generally unhappy with their employer.

ILA is not the kind of school that employs "backpackers" so I would imagine that their teacher turnover is relatively low for HCM City.

c) low wages/autocratic leadership/difficulties in advancing/unreliable payments/higher taxing.

I believe their wages are pretty standard.
I have heard some complaints, but they have a lot of teachers so what can one expect.
I believe they have opportunities for advancement.
I can not believe a school like ILA is unreliable in its payments. In fact, in my opinion, schools in Vietnam are very reliable payers relative to other schools in the region.
ILA offers net salaries and the teachers aren't deducted anything for tax. As I have posted before I regard this as the wrong way to do things.

There is no way ILA can be considered a typical school. For an offshore school it is difficult to consider it as anything less than "world class".

hoodooguru · Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 13

Interesting comments about ILA......

Just a few points I'd like to make:

Pretty good speculative work Spycatcher. In your post you use words like "I believe" "I am assuming" "I would imagine" and so on. This pontificating over whether ILA is a "good school" seems quite vague.

spycatcher · Joined: 06 Feb 2005 Posts: 27 Location: Ho Chi Minh City

Hoodooguru:

Jasmeen, the first poster on this thread does question "unreliable payments"

All:

I would like to temper/put in to perspective my "world class" comment".

The offshore private (non state) ESL industry as a whole is at best very very Mickey Mouse. There are no real big global players and there probably won't be in the near future.

It is largely a cottage industry with many schools set up by come good English teachers who think they can make a go of it. In reality very few of these have much relevant management experience and because of this are doomed to be, at best, local operators for the period of their school's existence.

Also in Asia rich business people like to add a school to their business portfolio just to make themselves look good. These people also, even though they are business people, don't seem care what goes on at their schools and are just happy to be associated with them and are happy to continue pumping money in even though they may be a continual financial burned. I see this has already started to happen in Vietnam.

The likes of Regent, EF etc. who are trying to franchise the industry and bring some standards/branding in to it are failing because of quality problems. It seems easy to franchise hamburgers but almost impossible to franchise English teaching, and possibly Education on the whole, successfully.

Salaries in the ESL industry are possibly OK at entry level, but if you want to bring up a family you seriously need to be looking at moving in to a management position or out of the industry.

The industry as a whole makes negligible profit, if any. I see this as primarily being because of bad management and bad marketing. When they start to get these right hopefully they will be able to charge more and start to pay higher salaries.

What I am trying to say is that the industry as a whole is very unprofessional.

ILA as an independent, offshore, self funded, not in existence long ESL school seems to be doing very well so far.

Jasmeen · Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 16

Well thanks a bunch, guys, for providing so much food for thought on ILA.

Shall I (and anyone else who has jumped in on this thread) take it that they are ok for a first foray (post-qualis, of course) into ESL teaching in Vietnam? Resource-, structure- and development-wise, it seems to be pretty solid.

Picking up on the "whole industry [being] unprofessional" theme that I've read in various forms across several of Dave's forums, I suppose the big question, then, is whether ILA offer a salary and conditions that are acceptable industry-wide.

I've read a lot about teachers accepting poor pay or conditions (whether or not they are backpackers, inexperienced or desperate) and putting the noses of experienced, qualified professionals out of joint/cutting their grass/lowering the acceptable standard of pay & conditions for them.

ILA may offer less than other schools but are their offers too low??? Are their conditions unreasonable or a threat to the prosperity or acceptable standards of the profession?

Micro67 · Joined: 29 May 2003 Posts: 297 Location: HCMC, Vietnam

Just a quick note that I have worked for ILA and have never had a problem with pay. Every school in this industry has its detractors, but the rubber meets the road on the pay issue and ILA has always paid on time and in full.

Mr Wind-up Bird · Joined: 22 Sep 2004 Posts: 196

I suppose if you want the safety net of already having a job to go to before you arrive in VN they're OK, but I've met so many disgruntled ex-ILA employees that I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole. Their constant recruiting and their desperation to get people to sign contracts (after I had a meeting with him their DOS called me 5 times in one week trying to get me top sign) surely speaks volumes.

There are plenty of decent schools here, you don't have to work for a school that insists you work Sat/Sun for $12 p/h & withholds your overtime!

mr.pete · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 26

From what I can tell - and I know a lot of teachers, both well-qualified and unqualified - ILA has the best standards / reputation in town. Most of the knockers I have met were people who had been turned down for not being suitably qualified. Look at the size of the operation - they are clearly doing something right.

Put is this way, I have heard far more complaints about most other schools in the city. I have also never worked (as a teacher) for ILA.

hoodooguru · Joined: 17 Dec 2004 Posts: 13

One thing I've noticed on this thread (and others) about ILA is the distinct lack of balance from ILA's supporters.

ILA does have advantages and they have been pointed out by all - including ILA detractors. But ILA supporters continue to neglect the school's obvious deficiencies.

Mr Pete wrote:

mr.pete · Joined: 02 May 2005 Posts: 26

Sorry Hoodooguru - I should clarify - regarding standards and reputation, I was referring to the reputation amongst the Vietnamese community - the students. I know several Vietnamese families who have and do send there kids there. The fact I mentioned tachers kind of puts that out doesn't it. I also have friends who have taught at ILA for a few years, and a few for shorter periods and left happily for new horizons / countries.

I know at least two guys around town who go knocking ILA at every chance they can get, and they had both been turned down for jobs there for not having CELTA or similar. This is my point, and I am not simply trying to throw one-sided propaganda by any means.

I also agree that big does not always mean better - from the employee's point of view, it tends to usually be the opposite. But size does give a measure of success, does it not?

It strikes me that despite the pay in Vietnam being higher than neighbouring countries and the cost of living considerably less, the amount of people in this industry who whinge about their jobs here is hilarious. I have heard complaints about most language centres I can think of in HCM city, and from what I know of friends who have worked in ILA, the place takes a lot of undeserved stick. That is the only reason I said what I did.