Job Discussion Forums

[millie]

My experiences with visas:
I have entered China a number of times for work on tourist visa. It must have been apparent at immigration because of the previous work visas in my passport. I did not feel any concern with that and it seems I must have correctly answered the very difficult set of questions posed at immigration in Shanghai (viz: “Passport?”).

So after that I was teaching illegally on a tourist visa while it was being converted to work visa.
(While this case of deception has yet to attract the interest of local officials or the attention of the International Court of Justice in The Hague, you never know what may happen here, do you?)

It can be a hassle getting a Z visa before you leave due to time restrictions in getting originals of all the documents you require and then the paperwork you supply may not be exactly that required by Chinese consulate in your country. Later, however, these very same documents sufficed in China.

My observations on visas:
I also have friends and know people who work as teachers on a business visa in Shanghai. These are people who have been in China a while and this visa suits their purposes as well as the tolerant attitude towards this practice here in Shanghai. Not recommended for places elsewhere it appears -although Beijing seems to be an exception too as noted by the OP.

As Mandu notes, it does allow you to leave an employer who is not honouring your agreement without the need for a letter of release. You can also work more than one job without the need for the permission of your first employer.

You need to make a choice that you are comfortable with but, unrelated to the question of visas, common sense suggests that you come with enough cash or cards to ride out any unforseen problems.
Surely for travel anywhere.

Happy holidays.
M

[Talkdoc]

I agree with Millie (and others) who state that working illegally in China, with an F-Visa, is currently tolerated in several provinces (although not in all; in Liaoning, for example, every teacher I met in Shenyang, had been in possession of a Z-Visa prior to moving to China, due to its enforcement by the provincial government).

My primary concern, regarding these discussions, is for the prospective teacher who is being asked to come to China on the basis of a F-Visa and, as this type of Visa does not obligate the employer, is then told there is no job available, for whatever reason (he's not attractive enough, the employer has "overbooked" and no longer needs the teacher, whatever). That is a pretty raw deal, if you ask me, and one that should never be suffered by any foreigner. The only sure-fire way that I know of to avoid that terrible mishap is to come to China to teach on a Z-Visa; because it legally obligates the sponsor.

As many others have reported, including me, once you receive the proper letter of invitation and foreign expert certificate from your employer, there is no additional time, expense or difficulty involved in obtaining a Z-Visa over any other. In addition, although there have been conflicting reports about this, the medical exam is not required for the Z-Visa (only for the residency permit which is processed once you are in China within 30 days of arrival. Admittedly, some employers might ask you to receive a physical exam prior to processing your paperwork, in order to predetermine your medical eligibility - but the Chinese embassy, at least in the states, does not require it for the Z-Visa.)

If the school is licensed to hire foreign teachers and if one (by hook or by crook) meets the minimum requirements, it is unclear to me why anyone would prefer coming to China to teach with anything other than a Z-Visa. (The only exception to this would be if the intent is to tour the country before engaging in employment; however, that will - in many provinces - involve leaving the country to reenter again with a Z-Visa.) It has been argued that a F-Visa gives you more freedom of movement, from employer to employer, in the event there is a problem, as a business Visa obviates the need for a letter of release. I don't believe this point is necessarily true: at least, not on the basis of my own experience.

As some of you might recall, after giving notice three times, I left my former employer without a letter of release and, in fact, if I had not been in possession of a valid Z-Visa at the time I wanted to change positions, it was made clear to me by the university that I would not have been employable (nor would they have been willing, or perhaps able, to convert an F- to a Z-Visa after I began teaching. In essence, I would have lost the opportunity to teach here if I had not been in possession of a Z-Visa at the time I applied). I have a hunch (although I don't know for certain) that most, if not all, authorized and licensed schools will have a definite preference for the Z-Visa and, certain schools (such as public ones as well as many others) cannot or will not (depending on the province) hire you without a Z-Visa in hand, prior to the commencement of your new employment (which completely argues against the position that an F-Visa provides you with greater mobility between jobs; in fact, the opposite may be true depending on the employer and the province). In addition, some have reported here that with the integration/combination of the new multi-entry Z-Visa/residency permit (as a stamp in the passport), the need for a letter of release will be eliminated. If that is true (and assuming one is eligible, one way or the other, for the Z-Visa), then no argument could be ever be made for any conceivable advantage (from our perspective as teachers, although it would still be of interest to unlicensed schools) of the F-Visa over the Z.

It appears that the procedures and processes for changing an F- to a Z-Visa are changing and some are meeting with more and more logistical difficulties. In light of this, and the aforementioned, I would still strongly encourage all (who meet the minimum requirements) to err on the side of the angels. If you can work legally in China, there is no doubt in my mind that you should and that doing so works entirely to your advantage (because it gives you access to the greatest number of prospective employers, the greastest degree of mobility between provinces and it completely precludes the need to worry about conversion - or Visa-runs - at a later time).

Doc

[cj750]

The best reason for a z is not that it protects you more than the F..if a Chinese employer wants to go back on his word or break a contract...he will. It is not because it is illegal to work without one...as many of us know that folks with Fs often work at licenced and unlicenced schools..after all this is China and no one can give absolutes about the application of law in all areas of China.
The best reason to work on a Z is that it affords the right to apply the residential formalities as to housing and legal rights as well as the availability of privledges such as drivers licences. If you don't need these and you like teaching while your looking over your shoulder than maybe the z is not for you. The simple advice is this..before coming to China save some cash....if you come to China on anything other than a z and the employer cannot z you, then shop around for another school ..that can...z you...go for a short vacation to HK or Thailand with the paperwork and come back clean..without the hassel of the PSB and like doc said..if it is true about not needing a release letter than there is no reason to come on anything but a z ..that is unless your a back packer

[Talkdoc]

[Roger]

In response to mandi's experience and his insights, i.e. a business visa absolves him from the need to pay tax in China, I would like you to take a more sober look at facts.

I have posted time and again here that ANYBODY LIVING ON PRC TERRITORY AND ENGAGED IN ONE FORM OR ANOTHER OF PROFITABLE ACTIVITIES IS SUBJECT TO TAXATION.
Holders of a business visa are legally required to pay tax on their business transactions while on the territory of the PRC (excluding Hong Kong and Macau); the relevant period when it is deemed to be served under the jurisdiction of the PRC government is 183 consecutive days.
While I do not at this juncture expect to be queried by customs officials at the Lowu checkpoint on my taxes I do not exclude this for all times in the future.

Note that border checkpoints are now computerised, and this enables them to run a check on you from just about anywhere. Expect in future to be asked to prove you have fulfilled your duties vis-a-vis the authorities.

Your boss, mandi, must be lying to you, or be as naive as many TEFLers. And don't hope for mercy if you are caught out; tax evaders usually pay sensibly more than what they actually owed the taxman!

These days, I would brag before my Chinese colleagues about how I dodge their tax system! Many of them would happily report you!

[mandu]

about getting taxed

Im not bragging or anything ok but i have never had to pay tax since i have been here.i have worked with both government kindergartens and private kindergartens.
the kindergarten Im working for now is a very big company,how is it that the woman who owns these kindergartens can have western teachers working for kindergartens with out getting busted???

half of me thinks yes its a bloody good idea to have all the right documents for working here.and the other half thinks why bother as nothing ever happens.also since being on a buisness visa the police take there children to the kindy,i have also been given medical insurance,the woman who owns these kindergartens is very well known in shenzhen and around china.
it seems to me maybe there are different rules for different parts of china and different schools.
i used to be one of these people that used to worry about my work visa and resident permit.but i dont worry anymore.

last year i went home for a holiday on my business visa when i came back to china nothing was said to me as i came back into shenzhen.

one more thing i think the grammer police wil have a field day with my writing (LOL)

[Spiderman Too]

Mandu

Don't worry about the 'Grammar Police'; they are toothless tigers. The 'Integrity Police', on the other hand .....

February 13

[Talkdoc]

[mandu]

what do you mean by hyperbolical or untrue mesgs

i just dont understand why you would write that.is that having a go at me???

you dont know my situation.i just wanted to have a say about this visa topic thats all.I dont know you guys who write these posts,but what what i do know is we all seem to face the same problems here in china.I have to think about my opitions.
yes i did get fired from my last job,and i also got asked to go back again because they do not want to change teachers every year they want stability.i have been offerd more money and i have been offerd a one yr contract.i have to think if i go back ami going to go through all the bullshit again.
i have never posted untruths.
who cares beleive what you want i have never judges anyone on this chinese site at all put anyone down or had ago about them being weather they are English teachers or not.many of the posts i have read have been helpful to my situation and i was just trying to give another view.

it seem somtimes when people post on here tend to put people down or judge some one by what they write.

[mandu]

also to i know my typeing skills are not the best most of the the spelling mistakes comes from fingers hitting the wrong letters.

starting my 5th yr in china 20thfeb i always prepare my classes im never late and i have always had a job in the time i have been here.Id like to think that Im a good English teacher for the age group i teach.and i do work hard.

do you think this is a hyperbolical or un true mesge???????????????

[Taishan]

OK, according to my boss, it's official for the whole of China. As from 1st of Jan 2005 you cannot change your L or F (tourist or business visa) to a Z visa inside China. You can however go to Hong Kong to do this. So if this was my first time to China I would either arrive in Hong Kong with the correct paperwork and get my Z visa there (as it's easier than any western country). Or I'd arrive in China on another visa and be prepared to go to Hong Kong to get a Z visa at a later stage.

I would be wary of entering on any other visa if you want to work as almost half the people that are on L or F visas get screwed on their return airfare and/or last months pay. This is because you have no leverage if you were to complain when you go to the local foreign affairs or Public Security.

[Spiderman Too]

Mandu

I respect your right to post messages concerning your experiences and opinions about living and working in China.

I acknowledge that your experiences and opinions are subject to change.

I implore you to write your messages in such a manner so as to avoid misrepresentation.

Effect resulting from inadvertence is no less potent than that intended.

[jeffinflorida]

How much does a visa cost? An F or L visa to go from Hong Kong to Mainland?

The school told me to get a visa from a travel agency in HK but didn't tell me how much it would cost.

Input?!?

[Roger]

Visa costs:
I strongly urge this jefflorida guy to do his homework while back home: go and ask the consulate. Why shouldn't you get your tourist visa there?

In Hong Kong, the Visa Section of the government will no doubt charge you the same.
As for AGENTS, they will mark up the visa cost to make a huge profit. Here are a couple of examples:

- Apt, in 8 Hankow Rd., Tsimshatsui was reported 4 years ago to charge around HK$ 1000 for a one-year visa (multiple, if I remember well).

- At Phoenix Travel Agent, 84 Nathan Rd., 6 months, multiple entry is, or was, $ 750. I don't know about one-year visas.
You go there before 11 a.m., hand in your passport and a picture (or two, methinks), and pick up your passport towards 6 p.m.

- I once applied for a multiple-entry, six month visa to the Chinese Visa Section of the government in Wanchai and paid around 300. It took 2 days, though, thus eliminating most of the saving on hotel bills.

These rates are as per 2000 or 2001/2. And, they were set prior to the doubling of visa costs for Americans. Now do your maths, body!

[jeffinflorida]

Visa fee and processing time


Number of Entry
American
Citizens of other countries

Single Entry
$50
$30

Double Entry
$75
$45

Multiple Entry for 6 Months
$100
$60

Multiple Entry for 12 Months
$150
$90