Job Discussion Forums

[ImanH]

Okay; 'fess up. Did you cheat again?
Either way, have a virtual Efes on me. Serefe!
Got to go and think of even more obscure questions about Eastenders.
Where is this magical website, anyway? Although if I knew that I'd be tempted to peak to find out who gets killed.

[ImanH]

OK, thought of one - well several. In light of the Turkey connection - what was the name of the Turkish character in Eastenders (very, very easy)?. What was the name of his wife? What two businesses did they run? And what was his (primary) vice?
NO CHEATING!


Maybe we should start a new thread before this gets too embarrassing? Or maybe it's too late for that.

[Faustino]

Ali and Sue Osman ran the Cafe and OZCABS (I'm sure it was spelt with a Z). Ali was actually a Cypriot Turk, and his brother, Mehmet, was a right thieving bar steward.

[Faustino]

Oh yeah, he was a big-time gambler. Do you know that he left Eastenders to become a Hollywood superstar? Didn't exactly work out for him, poor chap!!!

[dmb]

His vice was gambling. Real are 1-0 up at the moment against Juve. Any bets on the final result

[ImanH]

Oooh, someone else has come out of the Eastenders' closest. Didn't think of you as an Eastenders fan, Faustino. Or were you cheating, too?
Oy, dmb. Take your football talk over to your men's thread
OK, so those questions were obviously far too easy. I'll try to come up with more.
I didn't know about the Cypriot Turkish aspect though (you were cheating, weren't you?).
Interesting. How did they allude to that? Did they debate the Turkish/Greek conflict during an episode? And if so were they balanced in their representation or biased in a particular direction? (Just trying to reintroduce a vaguely intellectual theme here).

[justme]

Sorry to swerve back away from Eastenders (admitted addict though I'd never seen it or heard of it before I came here) but since there's a thread for it I feel less bad. Kicking myself for skipping the last 2 nights, though... Thought they were gonna stick to the boring Chrissy's Revenge and Zoe's Perpetual Whining so I found something better to do...

The stuff about the moustaches was really interesting! And also the political under-meanings of everything one does in daily life. Do you think it is true, at least to a lesser extent, these days? Just when I think I'm starting to understand things here, I read something like this that makes me realise I'm absolutely clueless. Turks must think foreigners have a bacon-bubble around their heads (ref. to the sucuk bubble of the 'Things that make you go...' thread)...

I agree it's almost as bad to forbid a woman to cover as it is to force her to cover. Almost. And it's certainly not worth all the trouble it causes here, though I know many Turks who would heartily disagree.

ImanH, you seem well-versed in the Koran. I read (admittedly in my English-language Penguin Classics version) a/the part where women are told to cover (I can't recall it offhand). In fact, I got the reference from 'Snow' (Orhan Pamuk), so I don't know if there are others. It was just a few sentences, but it said something along the lines that women should hide their bosoms with their veils and that they shouldn't go out in public exposing their jewelry, especially ankle jewelry. This part, at least, said nothing about hair or faces. So I wonder: Is it a translation issue, where jewelry has other meanings in Classical Arabic, or is it an interpretation issue? Are there other passages in the Koran about covering? Also, in Islam is covering an issue of modesty, or is it about showing devotion/respect to God? (I'm thinking about devout Jews covering their heads to show respect to God by keeping something between themselves and him)
I recognise that for these young Turkish women I'm working with, covering is an expression of religious identity as well as modesty. Just because I don't understand it through my western eyes doesn't make it wrong. It's just hard to think around 25+ years of American media telling me Islam is anti-woman, and that Feminism and Islam are a contradiction in terms. Turkish women have a right to choose their religion and they choose Islam, and it's not because they want to be subjugated and it's not because they think of themselves as foul temptresses. I'll look into those books you mentioned because I'm giving myself a headache trying to understand all of this by myself. Thanks for the refs.

I've never really had the opportunity to speak to covered Turkish women about this. Either their English isn't good enough (nor is my Turkish), or they do that Turkish-woman thing of avoiding controversial topics. I'm just not close enough friends with any covered Turkish women to really probe this, but I'm trying because I've been dead curious since I got here.

And back to politics, an intersting point about Turkey and the EU: Turkey has been slowly slowly changing laws in order to comply with EU Human Rights guidelines, including laws that are about religious freedom. However, when Turkey gives people freedom of religious expression, they tend to express themselves, but then the EU countries' media turn around and villify Turkey for becoming increasingly Islamic. Unintentional Catch-22? The EU wants Turkey to repeal some of its more Draconian Kemalist laws, but then says it doesn't want Turkey because they're unpleasantly and openly Muslim. So what do they want exactly? It can't be the Nationalist conspiracy theories being bandied around by my in-laws, but it's an interesting phenomenon nonetheless.

Off to the BBC website to catch up for tonight...

[ImanH]

justme, I�ve copied and pasted the part of the thesis on veiling below. Sorry it�s a bit long but I think it answers most of your questions. Regarding your point about translation, yes that is very pertinent. Plus the interpretation of the principles laid out in the Qur�an is not straightforward given the complexity and symbolism of Qur�anic text, not to mention the transformation of meanings any living language such as Arabic will undergo from the seventh century to the present. Add to that the concept of ijtihad, or interpretation, which is central to Islam and it might help to explain why there is such a variety of meanings and practice associated with veiling (and purdah, for that matter).
Coincidentally I just saw something on the beeb about Turkish parliament debating an amnesty for all students who were expelled for wearing headscarves.
This is a looonnnnnggg post so I�ll stop now, but feel free to pm me if you�d like any more references.

[vre]

My two-penneth about the headscarf issue.

I personally think it is unfair that women are again put in a position whereby they have to choose whether to sacrifice part of their beliefs (and for some women de-veiling is like taking your top off in public) or their educational opportunities. Some of my students wear hats or wigs. Some of my (nearly, maybe) relatives and close friends wear headscarves and don't in any way see it as a political statement. So, they have different interests from other students but at the end of the day my concern is that women don't have the right to choose. I think they should be allowed to choose. We don't ban crosses around christians necks. We don't ban so-called communist type dress, we don't ban goth type clothes for fear of satanism do we? Actions and words are what people should be more concerned with - not appearances - after all, people can act how they want under a veil, cross, or any kind of dress.

[vre]

ImanH - interesting extract, thanks

[dmb]

[Faustino]

There are a number of articles relating to this issue at the following site:

http://www.ttc.org/cgi-binloc/searchTTC.cgi?zopstory+14745

[justme]

Yes, thanks a lot, I'll look those up.

So it seems the issue brings up the other problem, which is that most Muslim people I ask about the Koran refuse to acknowledge the cultural context in which it was written, and won't really discuss about interpretations (even though Muslim scholars have been interpreting it for a century!) as though the book is 100% percent understandable on the first read, and it's a sin to try to interpret it.

I feel really sorry for these girls in my school who've had to uncover to be here-- I agree with VRE that de-veiling must be like going around topless for some of them. How can they justify forcing these young girls to make this kind of decision?

Makes for good discussion, though...

[ImanH]

I find it really interesting that your experiences of talking to Muslims and Muslim women is so varied from mine. Are you referring just to Turkey or in general? I ask because I'm wondering whether it's the contentious nature of the role of Islam in Turkey that makes people uncomfortable talking about it.

[justme]

It's an interesting question, ImamH, and I wish I knew the answer. I've pretty much only talked to Turks about Islam. The Muslims I knew in the States were Nation of Islam, and that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

I think perhaps my foreign-ness does make people clam up-- if they're not especially religious, they talk about it like 'You can't possibly understand the complexities of this issue, and I don't want to give you misinformation that you'll take back to your foreign cronies, and thus further the yabancı slander against the Turkish Republic. Just tell your friends we're not really a Muslim country.' If they're religious (and I have to say, I don't know many very religious people), they either speak in religious hyperbole and jargon that I don't understand very well, or they clam up, perhaps regarding my (foreigner) questions as a challenge? Or maybe I'm inadvertantly appearing challenging, I don't know.

The last time I asked some religious (male) private students about Islam, they started off defensive, then found they couldn't find the English words to explain, so they gave me a Fetullah G�len book in English (couldn't get past the first page-- it was preaching to the choir and I frankly don't care for Fetullah one bit) and another set of books I couldn't read because they were assuming a knowledge of and predisposition to Islam I don't have. So that's another probelm-- they either won't talk about it, or they start trying to convert you.

But I'm working on it. That's why I especially appreciate ImamH's comments-- I want to know more about it from a scholarly perspective, I'm admittedly too lazy to go through the books myself, and until this week, I didn't even have the first clue where to start!